Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
lesterb
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by lesterb »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:To add to this Sudsy, since the beginning of the Church, the Church has venerated women (not worshipped!) as well as men.
For example, the Samaratin woman at the well in John 4, that Jesus met with-

The footnote in my Orthodox Study Bible says this about her, in the footnote of John 4:28-30):
"The Samaratin woman becomes an early evangelist, testifying to the Advent of Christ, and bringing others to Him (v 39). According to an early tradition, after the Resurrection, she was baptized with the name Photini, "the enlightened one". Along with her two sons and five daughters, she went to Carthrage to spread the Gospel. She was later martyred with her family under the emperor Nero by being thrown into a well. (Actually the whole story is very hard to read!) The Church remembers her on March 20 and on the 4th Sunday of Pascha" (the name the Orthodox use for what we call Easter). "

So you see since the beginning of the Church, it was recognized that women had these gifts to be used of the Lord- that of course IS Scriptural. But never did these Spiritual women contend against Scripture, to have 'leadership/pastoral' roles in the Church because they would have understood Apostolic doctrine- and anytime a woman would rise up against Apostolic doctrine, and would not repent of that, wouldn't that be walking in disobedience? Deception?
And here 2000 years later, with women serving still- yet the Church has never budged on this issue, nor on the homosexual issues, which seem to end up going hand in hand eventually.
Isn't Protestantism and Anabaptism 'walking in disobedience' to what the Catholic and Orthodox churches believed is 'Apostolic doctrine' ? And few women were ready to be killed for standing up for any views of scripture outside those traditions but some did. Today, women can contend and do and have full opportunity to be educated in spiritual things, called and gifted to any role God chooses to use them in.

We are not going to agree on this and some Anabaptist pastors view this restraint on women as interfering with the work of God as can be viewed here -

And looking throughout youtube and elsewhere there are support for both sides. Our MB church and MC USA (I believe) have removed this restriction to allow everyone 'In Christ' to participate in any role. Are we all going to hell for it ? Not in my understanding of the NT.
Sudsy, I'm having more and more of a problem with the way to seem to expect God to line up with your opinions. I suspect that on the judgment day, we will all depend pretty heavily on the mercy of God. But to deliberately go against the Bible and argue that people who don't do it that way are interfering with God's plan seems like treading on some pretty thin ice to me. :roll: :-|
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote: Sudsy had provided the church service video which was encouraging women to step up to the plate & become pastors- after listening to the propaganda, and misinterpretation of scripture passages & misapplying others- the pastor then had an altar call for women to be prayed over for this 'calling'. I've truly never seen anything like it. I now understand how MCUSA has operated in furthering the direction it is taking people. It's happened in many denominations in the same way, but again we are reminded of the falling away before the Son of Man returns-false teaching, false doctrines, false prophets- are abounding in these days we live, in large numbers.
By the way, just to clarify, this pastor is not a MCUSA pastor. This view of us all being 'In Christ' and in this NC, God will and does pour out His Spirit on all flesh, including women to prophesy which means speak with authority to all who hear, including men. Imo, the 'falling away' is when the core elements of the Gospel are rejected in place of another gospel. (i.e. Jesus didn't really die; did not rise from the grave; did not return to the Father; did not die for our sins; is not coming back to reign). When these are messed with and still called Christianity, to me, these are unacceptable salvation issues. Obviously others here throw a whole number of other things into what is or can be a salvation issue.

Remember also how our faith journey understandings go. What you believed a few years ago you don't believe the same today in various areas but not on the core Christian beliefs. I suspect both of our understandings will continue down this path until we die. Then after that I think we all are in for some BIG surprises.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

lesterb wrote: Sudsy, I'm having more and more of a problem with the way to seem to expect God to line up with your opinions. I suspect that on the judgment day, we will all depend pretty heavily on the mercy of God. But to deliberately go against the Bible and argue that people who don't do it that way are interfering with God's plan seems like treading on some pretty thin ice to me. :roll: :-|
Interesting. That is how I feel those with opposing views are responding. I should perhaps clarify that I'm not trying to convert anyone to views that 'deliberately go against the Bible' as that phrase is in the 'eye of the beholder' of what scripture is saying. Some like a Greg Boyd and Bruxy Cavey (here in Canada) do see this as interfering with furthering the Kingdom. Others here see this as disobedience hindering the Kingdom.

Personally, I think it good to try to understand where different views come from and how scripture is used in support of these views so we can decide for ourselves. From my experience, being under a lady pastor and what that has meant to my family, I look for a view that does not contradict that experience. I'm glad our MB church sees it more in a no gender way of serving as I hope it results in what I already experienced. You mentioned one time I am results driven (or something like that). Yes, I am and when scriptures support that I put more faith than ever in the scriptures and what God is doing.

I agree that at judgment day it will be about depending on the mercy of God for how screwed up we were in our scriptural interpretations. And my interpretation on that is through Jesus I am seen as blameless, perfect, without spot or wrinkle as a part of His Bride. My works as a believer and rewards are a separate issue. I'm trusting I got that part right.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ken_sylvania »

Sudsy wrote:From my experience, being under a lady pastor and what that has meant to my family, I look for a view that does not contradict that experience.
If you approach your Bible study having predetermined what interpretation you wish to find, you'll probably have your eyes closed to anything it might say to the contrary.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

ken_sylvania wrote:
Sudsy wrote:From my experience, being under a lady pastor and what that has meant to my family, I look for a view that does not contradict that experience.
If you approach your Bible study having predetermined what interpretation you wish to find, you'll probably have your eyes closed to anything it might say to the contrary.
Exactly. Also true is sticking to what one has always be taught on a subject regardless of what actually has resulted from a different interpretation can also be a closed eyes approach to learning.

There has always been and will continue to be a belief that group determined interpretations trump individual interpretations and what has resulted from that ? The creation of many, many groups disagreeing with each other most noticeably within Anabaptism. Since we all will give an account for ourselves someday and not as a group, we have to decide what interpretations to live by. Some just follow what they are told to believe is correct and they ride with that. I'm not prepared to go there. I believe God knows our hearts and desire to best see His Kingdom grow as we search out His ways.

So do we agree that these I listed (Jesus didn't really die; did not rise from the grave; did not return to the Father; did not die for our sins; is not coming back to reign) are salvation issues and that go against the primary core truths of Christianity ? When it comes to disobedience we can debate what is timeless and what is not timeless instructions forever. Those core truths or what Paul referred to as of first importance in the Gospel that saves us, imi (in my interpretation) cannot be altered and be saved.
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Would an order that was instituted at creation still be relevant to-day?
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
You're talking examples from Scripture?
I guess not :(
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
You're talking examples from Scripture?
I guess not :(
Sorry I forgot to respond. Yes, these examples have scripture texts in each.
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
silentreader wrote:
You're talking examples from Scripture?
I guess not :(
Sorry I forgot to respond. Yes, these examples have scripture texts in each.
?
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
I guess not :(
Sorry I forgot to respond. Yes, these examples have scripture texts in each.
?
Those items listed 1-10 in that Renew article.
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Sorry I forgot to respond. Yes, these examples have scripture texts in each.
?
Those items listed 1-10 in that Renew article.
So it's interesting that most of the 'clear' examples come from the 'OC' period, which, if I remember correctly, you said earlier was different from how God worked in the 'NC', unless, of course they can serve as prooftexts.
Unless I'm missing something, the plain reading of the NT passages given do not suggest that any of the women mentioned were in pastoral or authority positions. Pheobe is not called a deacon or deaconess in Romans 16:1 but is called a diakonos of the church at Cenchreae, translated servant in a lot of translations and can mean several different things.
What is interesting to me is that people who favor female pastors often say that Paul was 'anti-woman', and that it was his own idea and teaching that women could not be in leadership, and yet here, in the opening verses of Romans 16 we see clearly the deep respect that Paul had for Christian women, not at all suggesting that Paul thought they were lesser, but rather that his prohibition was because of differences in roles of men and women in the church (NC by the way), reflective of God's order.
There is a possibility that Phoebe, and possibly others of the women mentioned in the beginning of Romans 16 were given the responsibility of bearing the letter to Rome, and Paul's glowing mention of them was a form of introduction.
Of the Scripture texts in the 'renew' article, I would not consider any of them a clear statement for women in ministry, but rather are used as prooftexts to support opinions based on human reasoning.

I really didn't want to get involved in this, I'm sorry, I let myself get sucked in, but truth, and searching for truth, is important to me, because the opposite of truth is falsehood, and even though we can do wrong things 'innocently' in ignorance, I think Scripture teaches that if we love a lie, it becomes a salvation issue.

Women in ministry as a stand-alone issue, (IMO) is probably not a salvation issue. It may or may not be a slippery slope, but it is the thin edge of the wedge.

OK I'd like to be done with this now, opinions are not going to change anyway.
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