Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Wayne in Maine »

I think "salvation", as we tend to think of it, is the real issue. Jesus never spoke of anything like this topic is discussing. Sorting out salvation issues really get down to seeking "to save your life", bargaining for something God gives freely to those who will lose their lives for Jesus' sake and the sake of His good news. I sincerely believe that the true follower of Jesus, the one who "gets it" will not even ask these sort of questions.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Ernie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Sunbeam wrote:I think something becomes a salvation issue for me if I know what I should do, or should and could know what I should do if I wanted to know, and refuse to do it.
Since it was my statement originally I think I should try to clarify it. I believe a salvation issue to be one such as Jesus is not the only way to enter God's Kingdom. Or salvation is not about being saved from our sins. Or one can be saved by not repenting and believing in the work Jesus did to obtain our salvation. Or that Jesus didn't really die and rise from the grave. Those basic salvation beliefs and acts.
A rich young ruler came to Jesus and wondered how he could experience eternal life. Jesus told him to give to the poor and the man refused. This became a salvation issue.

So is this a salvation issue just for this young man or is it a salvation issue for all of us that we all must sell our possessions and give to the poor to be saved ? Jesus then said how hard it was for a rich person to enter the Kingdom. This confused the disciples about a rich person not being able to be saved and they asked 'then who can be saved ?'. Jesus then said with God all things are possible. Yes, the issue here was a salvation issue as the young man would not repent (turn from his god of mammon to following Christ). There is no salvation through Christ without repentance.

I agree with Sunbeam that anything can become a salvation issue if God asks us to do it and we steadfastly refuse.

Is God asking each one of us to share the Gospel with those we have access to ? Are we all doing that or are we steadfastly refusing ? Will those who are not sharing their faith and seeking the salvation of others be lost in the end ? I think there are likely various things we steadfastly refuse to do that God has commanded as we continue to give into the flesh or satan in that area but I view this as losing current blessings and eternal reward but not losing eternal life. Do we disown our children because in some areas they refuse to obey ? There are consequences but I don't believe God disowns us for our areas of stubbornness.
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RZehr
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by RZehr »

Sudsy wrote: I think there are likely various things we steadfastly refuse to do that God has commanded as we continue to give into the flesh or satan in that area but I view this as losing current blessings and eternal reward but not losing eternal life. Do we disown our children because in some areas they refuse to obey ? There are consequences but I don't believe God disowns us for our areas of stubbornness.
Are you getting this belief from specific verses in the Bible or not?
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Soloist »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I think "salvation", as we tend to think of it, is the real issue. Jesus never spoke of anything like this topic is discussing. Sorting out salvation issues really get down to seeking "to save your life", bargaining for something God gives freely to those who will lose their lives for Jesus' sake and the sake of His good news. I sincerely believe that the true follower of Jesus, the one who "gets it" will not even ask these sort of questions.

well since I clearly don't get it, asking such horrid questions. What does losing your life for Jesus even look like in our comfy country?
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:
Sudsy wrote: I think there are likely various things we steadfastly refuse to do that God has commanded as we continue to give into the flesh or satan in that area but I view this as losing current blessings and eternal reward but not losing eternal life. Do we disown our children because in some areas they refuse to obey ? There are consequences but I don't believe God disowns us for our areas of stubbornness.
Are you getting this belief from specific verses in the Bible or not?
Yes, various texts can be used. Basically, I do not view God as less loving than I would ever be as a parent. God is love. He gives us commandments as He wants the best life for us here and now as well as later. When I refuse to do what He says I believe the Holy Spirit is grieved as I am not trusting God in that area as desiring the best for me. When I wandered away from listening to God for some years and allowed the flesh to rule, I always felt God there, standing at the door, patiently waiting to restore fellowship. I had no sense of being abandoned and this grace that God had for me through this period drew me back. Was I 'saved' during that rebellious time ? It is my belief, I was. I think God's love for His adopted child 'goes far beyond what tongue or pen could ever tell'. Not that we should use this as a license to sin but to believe some of our unwillingness to obey in certain areas will not forfeit our salvation. My salvation is based on what Jesus did not how good of a son I am.
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ohio jones
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ohio jones »

Well, I guess I can steadfastly refuse to raise my hands when praying, and still have salvation and eternal life and go to heaven and all. So why should I bother doing something that might be uncomfortable and unpopular and inconvenient, and was probably just for that era anyway? :)
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

ohio jones wrote:Well, I guess I can steadfastly refuse to raise my hands when praying, and still have salvation and eternal life and go to heaven and all. So why should I bother doing something that might be uncomfortable and unpopular and inconvenient, and was probably just for that era anyway? :)
Why should we bother preaching the Gospel to people and making disciples ? Probably one of the most uncomfortable, unpopular and inconvenient commands to obey ? Will those who disobey and have never lead someone into Christ following be lost ? No, but we will lose reward after our works as believers are tried by fire.

The reason why we should be bothered to do something should be because the Holy Spirit guides us to do it as an act of love for Christ. Many of those things will go against our fleshly nature. If we ignore the Holy Spirit we will cause Him grief and at some point we 'quench' the Spirit from working in us. Are we still prodigal sons at that point ? I would say yes if we have truly been adopted as a son. As the prodigal son, we find out that going our own course, as a son, heads into a miserable life. Been there, done that. I think this is going into the topic of the security of a believer so I will end here.
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Josh
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Josh »

My observation is that people who look for the minimum of what they need to do to be "saved" eventually end up losing any belief they had in Jesus and the scriptures and become very lost.

Jesus said, come, follow me. And he expected his followers to abandon everything else - lands, expensive draft animals, a new wife, or their deceased loved ones not yet buried.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Josh wrote:My observation is that people who look for the minimum of what they need to do to be "saved" eventually end up losing any belief they had in Jesus and the scriptures and become very lost.

Jesus said, come, follow me. And he expected his followers to abandon everything else - lands, expensive draft animals, a new wife, or their deceased loved ones not yet buried.
I would question in my mind anyone looking for the bare minimum to be saved as to whether they were born of the Spirit and had received a new heart that wants to serve the Lord.

I agree Jesus said for His followers at that time to literally abandon everything to follow Him. If those areas are taken literally today most of us are lost. If taken as giving up on our old way of living (serving self) we enter into or find a new life being a child of God that is more abundant and joy filled then can be expressed. This turning is called repentance.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Are we confusing two different things?

A Christian can be completely devoted to serving Jesus, but disagree with another equally devoted Christian about what that looks like. For instance, a Catholic and a plain Mennonite have significantly different beliefs about many things, but there are clearly devoted disciples in both groups. I'm convinced that there will always be legitimate disagreements about what Scripture teaches about some things, and that this was true even in the early church.

So I think we need to be uncompromising in our own discipleship, but also have grace for the discipleship of those who understand things differently, while calling everyone to discipleship. At the end of the day, our discipleship is to Jesus, not to my theology or yours. There are theological errors significant enough that they may affect salvation ... but there are also things within each of our own traditions that can affect our salvation, and for most of us, that is a greater danger.
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