Salvation issues

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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

To add to this Sudsy, since the beginning of the Church, the Church has venerated women (not worshipped!) as well as men.
For example, the Samaratin woman at the well in John 4, that Jesus met with-

The footnote in my Orthodox Study Bible says this about her, in the footnote of John 4:28-30):
"The Samaratin woman becomes an early evangelist, testifying to the Advent of Christ, and bringing others to Him (v 39). According to an early tradition, after the Resurrection, she was baptized with the name Photini, "the enlightened one". Along with her two sons and five daughters, she went to Carthrage to spread the Gospel. She was later martyred with her family under the emperor Nero by being thrown into a well. (Actually the whole story is very hard to read!) The Church remembers her on March 20 and on the 4th Sunday of Pascha" (the name the Orthodox use for what we call Easter). "

So you see since the beginning of the Church, it was recognized that women had these gifts to be used of the Lord- that of course IS Scriptural. But never did these Spiritual women contend against Scripture, to have 'leadership/pastoral' roles in the Church because they would have understood Apostolic doctrine- and anytime a woman would rise up against Apostolic doctrine, and would not repent of that, wouldn't that be walking in disobedience? Deception?
And here 2000 years later, with women serving still- yet the Church has never budged on this issue, nor on the homosexual issues, which seem to end up going hand in hand eventually.
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Would an order that was instituted at creation still be relevant to-day?
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
You're talking examples from Scripture?
...bump...
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

I suspect we are conflating two issues. One is what the Scripture says about various topics, the other is whether each of these is a salvation issue - presumably, for someone else.

We could have a separate thread on women pastors or any one of these subjects to discuss what Scripture says and what we should do. I'm not comfortable with women pastors, for what it's worth, but I also think we need to make room for female leadership along the lines of Junia, Priscilla, and Phoebe. I'm also not at all comfortable with the role of the pastor in most modern churches, where we seem to assume that one person has many of the roles and gifts we expect to find in the body.

But salvation issues? That really does seem like an invitation to say my opinion on almost any issue is vitally important, and that I am everyone else's judge. And I would be worried that this might be a salvation issue for me. That makes it hard for me to go into the details of any of these other controversies in a thread with this title.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:I suspect we are conflating two issues. One is what the Scripture says about various topics, the other is whether each of these is a salvation issue - presumably, for someone else.

We could have a separate thread on women pastors or any one of these subjects to discuss what Scripture says and what we should do. I'm not comfortable with women pastors, for what it's worth, but I also think we need to make room for female leadership along the lines of Junia, Priscilla, and Phoebe. I'm also not at all comfortable with the role of the pastor in most modern churches, where we seem to assume that one person has many of the roles and gifts we expect to find in the body.

But salvation issues? That really does seem like an invitation to say my opinion on almost any issue is vitally important, and that I am everyone else's judge. And I would be worried that this might be a salvation issue for me. That makes it hard for me to go into the details of any of these other controversies in a thread with this title.
Are you comfortable with answering the question, as to whether disobedience to what God says is a salvation issue?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:Are you comfortable with answering the question, as to whether disobedience to what God says is a salvation issue?
I am quite confident that every one of us is disobeying some things God says.
If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I am very uncomfortable with people who focus on the disobedience of others rather than their own, and are in denial about their own sin. I think that's what the Pharisees did, exalt their own righteousness by putting down others, and Jesus had quite a bit to say about that. If you look who seems to have gotten saved in the New Testament, that includes some very imperfect people. And Jesus said clearly that some of those who are loudest about their own righteousness are condemning themselves.

None of us get into heaven without God's grace. I am unwilling to decide what is a salvation issue for someone else, because God tells me not to set myself up as someone else's judge and warns that I will be judged with the same measure I use to judge others.

I am also quite confident that this grace should lead us to obedience. My job is to ask God to show me where I am deceiving myself, to wash the inside of my cup, and to change my desires so that I can obey him with that "want-to" obedience. My job is not to create a list of things I can use to judge others.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Valerie wrote:Are you comfortable with answering the question, as to whether disobedience to what God says is a salvation issue?
I am quite confident that every one of us is disobeying some things God says.
If we say that we do not have sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, so that he will forgive us our sins and will cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
I am very uncomfortable with people who focus on the disobedience of others rather than their own, and are in denial about their own sin. I think that's what the Pharisees did, exalt their own righteousness by putting down others, and Jesus had quite a bit to say about that. If you look who seems to have gotten saved in the New Testament, that includes some very imperfect people. And Jesus said clearly that some of those who are loudest about their own righteousness are condemning themselves.

None of us get into heaven without God's grace. I am unwilling to decide what is a salvation issue for someone else, because God tells me not to set myself up as someone else's judge and warns that I will be judged with the same measure I use to judge others.

I am also quite confident that this grace should lead us to obedience. My job is to ask God to show me where I am deceiving myself, to wash the inside of my cup, and to change my desires so that I can obey him with that "want-to" obedience. My job is not to create a list of things I can use to judge others.
And what if we are unwilling to repent? I mean if we always use the Pharisees to justify not bringing correction into these matters of the Church & Faith that has caused many churches to split- then where are we today?
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Valerie wrote:And what if we are unwilling to repent? I mean if we always use the Pharisees to justify not bringing correction into these matters of the Church & Faith that has caused many churches to split- then where are we today?
We can and should repent. Often. That's about us, not everyone else, but we can only do that by focusing on the areas where we ourselves might need to repent. Let's discuss what the Bible teaches us, then obey that.

The Pharisees should not be used not an excuse for living in unrighteousness, and I agree that some liberals do that whenever you suggest that the Bible says anything concrete. On the other hand, Pharisees and false religiosity and self-righteousness are an absolutely huge part of what Jesus spoke out against, and there's something terribly out of balance if we ignore all of that. I'm pretty sure Jesus would say many of the same things to some of our churches today. Perhaps to some of us. Perhaps to me.

If we each focus on our own obedience issues and our own self-deception and self-righteousness issues, discerning together in the Holy Spirit in light of Scripture, I'm pretty confident that the salvation issues will work themselves out in God's grace.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
IF you are meaning in a pastoral role- Yes, because if she is able to be deceived like Eve was in believing a lie- (which is why Paul said the woman was not to have authority over the man, and this had nothing to do with 'culture')- then she is capable of being deceived in many areas- and not teaching truth- but her own understanding of it, and believing God is calling her, which would be confusing people- so if she is not being obedient to Him, then who is she being obedient to? Who is the one calling her to disobey?

Evangelizing and sharing the Gospel, is not the same thing as being the pastor of the Church and yes I believe women are to use their gifts to evangelize, share the Gospel, and reach the lost among many other ways to be used in ministering, but not being a minister.
So, if a woman is capable of being deceived (like Eve), then why should she be allowed to prophesy, interpret tongues, teach children in Sunday School, be a missionary or do anything in the church ? Why should I believe what you are telling me here because women are so easily deceived ? You know I do think you are no more capable of being deceived than any man but in that day that this letter was written women were not educated like the men in spiritual matters and they could be more easily deceived.

I really find it hard to understand that the lady pastor whose preaching and teachings our whole family was saved and discipled under might be lost because she took the role of a pastor. If you knew her and her love for the Lord, I think you might have a hard time sticking with your belief on that. I previously thought you believed one could lose their salvation only on turning their back on Jesus as Saviour but seems I mis-understood.
Sudsy, you're speaking as if "I" am the one who said the woman can be deceived- forgetting that it was Apostle Paul who stated this- but really, before Apostle Paul, it was God. Of course deception is not 'gender specific', we have seen throughout time, that both genders can be deceived. Consider Genesis 3- this that God has said has nothing to do with "education"

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Consider with this, 1 Corinthians 11:
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.

What do you conclude from this Sudsy? Does 'education' have anything to do with this? Education didn't have anything to do with the Apostles that Jesus sent to build His Church- in fact, He chose 'uneducated' men. He could have just as easily brought women into this group of men, and taught them the same things, that He taught the uneducated fishermen, for example- indeed there were very Godly women around at that time! Who Jesus chose to build His Church was not dependent on education, and yes- many women were used in the Church that was being built- to help build. But never did they have pastoral roles, even though they had gifts, spiritual gifts, ministering gifts, hospitality gifts, etc-
A woman who truly desires to please the Lord would not step out of the commandments in disobedience, although she could 'think' she is being called to a pastoral role- and the message of the Gospel may reach others, but then look what happens? These same Churches are bringing other sins of disobedience into these churches that allowed women pastors- I don't know- to me it seems quite obvious. You cannot get around the fact, that women were not to have "Authority" over the men in a Church (or marriage) and how a woman can read the Scriptures and not realize this is puzzling- except for I know the way the enemy of our soul works best is to mix the Truth with a lie.
Been busy, so I'll try to catch up - It sounds to me that you associate a pastor role with having 'authority over a man' whereas I don't. Actually there is no scripture saying that a woman cannot be a pastor. The lady pastor we had preached from the scriptures but when it came to having authority to do things, the church board and her made those decisions. She did not tell any man in her sermons what they must believe.

Regarding 'education' I was referring to being educated in the scriptures. Since the women back then were not allowed much opportunity to learn (ever see the movie Yentyl) Paul was saying to not ask questions during the church gathering but ask their husbands at home. Paul tried to get some order in that church, order to eliminate interruptions. And he must have also been referring to wives of men as earlier in Corinthians he suggested the unmarried to stay unmarried.

Women have been in leadership roles in the Salvation Army and Pentecostal churches for many, many years. Actually, here is a link to a list of those who do allow women in leadership. I don't see these leading the way in areas of further disobedience anymore than those who don't allow women to lead.

http://www2.cbeinternational.org/new/E- ... -FINAL.pdf

I'll move on to the next post.

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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:To add to this Sudsy, since the beginning of the Church, the Church has venerated women (not worshipped!) as well as men.
For example, the Samaratin woman at the well in John 4, that Jesus met with-

The footnote in my Orthodox Study Bible says this about her, in the footnote of John 4:28-30):
"The Samaratin woman becomes an early evangelist, testifying to the Advent of Christ, and bringing others to Him (v 39). According to an early tradition, after the Resurrection, she was baptized with the name Photini, "the enlightened one". Along with her two sons and five daughters, she went to Carthrage to spread the Gospel. She was later martyred with her family under the emperor Nero by being thrown into a well. (Actually the whole story is very hard to read!) The Church remembers her on March 20 and on the 4th Sunday of Pascha" (the name the Orthodox use for what we call Easter). "

So you see since the beginning of the Church, it was recognized that women had these gifts to be used of the Lord- that of course IS Scriptural. But never did these Spiritual women contend against Scripture, to have 'leadership/pastoral' roles in the Church because they would have understood Apostolic doctrine- and anytime a woman would rise up against Apostolic doctrine, and would not repent of that, wouldn't that be walking in disobedience? Deception?
And here 2000 years later, with women serving still- yet the Church has never budged on this issue, nor on the homosexual issues, which seem to end up going hand in hand eventually.
Isn't Protestantism and Anabaptism 'walking in disobedience' to what the Catholic and Orthodox churches believed is 'Apostolic doctrine' ? And few women were ready to be killed for standing up for any views of scripture outside those traditions but some did. Today, women can contend and do and have full opportunity to be educated in spiritual things, called and gifted to any role God chooses to use them in.

We are not going to agree on this and some Anabaptist pastors view this restraint on women as interfering with the work of God as can be viewed here -

And looking throughout youtube and elsewhere there are support for both sides. Our MB church and MC USA (I believe) have removed this restriction to allow everyone 'In Christ' to participate in any role. Are we all going to hell for it ? Not in my understanding of the NT.
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ohio jones »

Sudsy wrote:It sounds to me that you associate a pastor role with having 'authority over a man' whereas I don't. Actually there is no scripture saying that a woman cannot be a pastor.
Sudsy wrote:Our MB church and MC USA (I believe) have removed this restriction to allow everyone 'In Christ' to participate in any role. Are we all going to hell for it ? Not in my understanding of the NT.
Well, there's the requirement for a church leader (pastor, deacon, minister, bishop, overseer, elder -- pick your passage and translation) to be the husband of one wife. If you remove enough restrictions, you can end up interpreting this like some in MCUSA. I think they are using way too much creativity with the "husband" part, but I don't see a stopping point between your position and theirs.
MWR wrote:Lea and her partner will marry in November. Shortly thereafter they will move to New Mexico, when she will begin serving as Albuquerque Mennonite’s pastor.
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