Salvation issues

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MaxPC
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:-Conversely, can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?
"Oh, I've taken a vow of poverty. These billions of euros I control belong to the church, not to me."
I didn't know you were Jim Bakker
:lol:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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ohio jones
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ohio jones »

MaxPC wrote:
ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:-Conversely, can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?
"Oh, I've taken a vow of poverty. These billions of euros I control belong to the church, not to me."
I didn't know you were Jim Bakker
:lol:
Bakker's prosperity was long behind him by the time the Euro was adopted. In case it wasn't clear, I was referring to the Pope, who belongs at the top of any such list regardless of his personal balance sheet. I'm surprised you'd be the one to question his Christianity, but perhaps it's a point to consider.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Great question, Wayne. It also brings up other questions:
-How do we know about another's monetary wealth without breaching confidentiality laws?
-Conversely, can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?
Who knows, and who cares.

We each know our own finances, we can each ask God how best to use them, searching our hearts in the light of Scripture. This is often best done together with other believers.
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MaxPC
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote:
MaxPC wrote:
ohio jones wrote: "Oh, I've taken a vow of poverty. These billions of euros I control belong to the church, not to me."
I didn't know you were Jim Bakker
:lol:
Bakker's prosperity was long behind him by the time the Euro was adopted. In case it wasn't clear, I was referring to the Pope, who belongs at the top of any such list regardless of his personal balance sheet. I'm surprised you'd be the one to question his Christianity, but perhaps it's a point to consider.
The point I'm making is that it's not our job, yours or mine to question anyone's Christianity, not the Pope, not the man in the pew next to you. We can either spend our time pointing at others or return to the point of this thread which is to examine our own attitudes regarding salvation and our own stumbling blocks. Judging others is a distraction from truly looking at ourselves and our own faults. Holding onto to ancient biases and continuing to attack others is a form of violence. So says the Bible in so many places that there's no room to list it here. As Christians you and I are called to walk the path of Christ's peace.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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ohio jones
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ohio jones »

"can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?" sounds more like judging them than examining our own attitudes. Just sayin'.
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I am a Christian and my name is Pilgram; I'm on a journey, but I'm not alone -- NewSong, slightly edited
MaxPC
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by MaxPC »

ohio jones wrote:"can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?" sounds more like judging them than examining our own attitudes. Just sayin'.
To expand a bit for your understanding: Can we honestly say that any of the people we know are de facto practicing Christians, whether world's wealthiest or the poor man in the street? We can't honestly say that of anyone, can we? Only God judges hearts. It's not our circus nor our monkeys to be judging others when we should be looking after our own walk.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Max, would it be helpful if we start pointing out when you seem to be judging people or claiming to be more righteous than other people or questioning other people's faith? You may not be aware of this, but I think these are things that you do.

I think that's very different from talking about what is right and good and what is wrong. We do need to be able to talk openly to figure out what the right path is. I don't think judging other people or claiming that we have a particular spiritual position helps with that. I think open discussion does.
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cmbl
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by cmbl »

Sudsy wrote: :lol: I knew it would come up again. Like my pet one on lifting up holy hands in prayer.
I can think of one very important way in which the two are different.

If memory serves, Sudsy, you often bring up "holy hands" when head-veiling is mentioned, but you(r wife) does not practice nor seek a church that practices this.

If memory serves, Wayne actually did sell his possessions to join the Bruderhof.
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Hats Off
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:The foot washing thing is obvious to me a practise of that era not required today but the spirit of humility toward each other still remains and we should find ways to act out that in our current culture.
Such as?
Our previous MB pastor would work in the kitchen and often went around the room topping up everyone's coffee. I think taking opportunities wherever we find them to serve others within the community and having a humble attitude around others. As scripture says preferring one another above ourselves. Don't rush for the best seats or being first to be served at a meal but prefer others to have first choices. If someone, perhaps visitor, sits in your seat at church, or takes your favourite parking place, don't fuss about it. And if they come back next week and take over these things, be glad to give it up. Always look for opportunities to do something for another person in the fellowship regardless of how much it is something you don't like to do. Offer to be a part time janitor. Volunteer for yard upkeep. Give up of our time to visit someone and spend time listening rather than talking. Pick up people for church. Take them to appointments.Those kind of unselfish acts for others I think show that we are not above doing anything for the benefit of others like the washing of feet that Jesus said they should do for each other rather than get some third party to do.
And then I would answer "these ought you to have done and not left the other undone."
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

cmbl wrote:
Sudsy wrote: :lol: I knew it would come up again. Like my pet one on lifting up holy hands in prayer.
I can think of one very important way in which the two are different.

If memory serves, Sudsy, you often bring up "holy hands" when head-veiling is mentioned, but you(r wife) does not practice nor seek a church that practices this.

If memory serves, Wayne actually did sell his possessions to join the Bruderhof.
My reference to these two topics was only that both of us have referred to them many times to make a point. When I bring up "lifting holy hands" it is not to say I follow that literally as I don't. My argument was that if women should take the preceding verses literally, then men should take these verses that followed literally also. To me, this smacks of men telling women what they need to do but ignoring what men should be doing, literally. Yes, we do attend an Anabaptist Mennonite church where the "head-veiling" is not practised and only some lift their hands in prayer but more often in praise. Our church I would describe as "Charismatic Anabaptist Lite" :clap: :) .

I guess I don't get the importance of the point you are making by what Wayne and I have done in our orthopraxy.
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