Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
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Josh
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Josh »

Bootstrap wrote:Are we confusing two different things?

A Christian can be completely devoted to serving Jesus, but disagree with another equally devoted Christian about what that looks like. For instance, a Catholic and a plain Mennonite have significantly different beliefs about many things, but there are clearly devoted disciples in both groups. I'm convinced that there will always be legitimate disagreements about what Scripture teaches about some things, and that this was true even in the early church.

So I think we need to be uncompromising in our own discipleship, but also have grace for the discipleship of those who understand things differently, while calling everyone to discipleship. At the end of the day, our discipleship is to Jesus, not to my theology or yours. There are theological errors significant enough that they may affect salvation ... but there are also things within each of our own traditions that can affect our salvation, and for most of us, that is a greater danger.
Anabaptism has never been defined by accepting devout Catholics as legitimate disciples, though - its history is the exact opposite.

If we all had taken the above approach, Anabaptism wouldn't exist, and we all might as well go back to being Catholic.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

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Josh wrote:Anabaptism has never been defined by accepting devout Catholics as legitimate disciples, though - its history is the exact opposite.

If we all had taken the above approach, Anabaptism wouldn't exist, and we all might as well go back to being Catholic.
I disagree.

I think you can firmly serve Jesus according to your best understanding without judging someone else who has a different understanding. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" I have been able to serve alongside people with whom I have serious theological disagreements.

But I also think it's important to be clear about what these differences are and not just pretend they do not exist.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

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ohio jones wrote:
Sudsy wrote:It took some 1800 years to get rid of slavery and in the end even Christians fought the change to this mindset. But we finally got there.
21 million people around the globe (or by other estimates as high as 46 million) would disagree that slavery is extinct.

But since you brought up the subject: Is slave ownership a salvation issue?
I see I never replied to your question. Sorry. My answer - 'no' and I was only thinking of our Western culture. I say 'no' because Jesus did not condemn it but rather told His followers how they were to live in such a system whether they be masters or slaves. If it was a salvation issue I would think Jesus would say so at that time.

My point is that it took years for us to change our thinking on slavery and I believe we see this change as a good change. So, when certain traditional views are thrown out for views that achieve a greater good, then this change is a step forward not a step backward. Some see most all changes from tradition as things going more 'worldly'. They can be but not all are, imo.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

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Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:Anabaptism has never been defined by accepting devout Catholics as legitimate disciples, though - its history is the exact opposite.

If we all had taken the above approach, Anabaptism wouldn't exist, and we all might as well go back to being Catholic.
I disagree.

I think you can firmly serve Jesus according to your best understanding without judging someone else who has a different understanding. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" I have been able to serve alongside people with whom I have serious theological disagreements.

But I also think it's important to be clear about what these differences are and not just pretend they do not exist.
Curious - are you allowed to take communion at the church you attend ? I don't get 'closed communion' as this to me crosses the line of "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" Our MB church leaves participation up to each individual in attendance. It is announced that if you are a born again Christian join in, otherwise let the bread and cup pass you by.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

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Sudsy wrote:Curious - are you allowed to take communion at the church you attend ? I don't get 'closed communion' as this to me crosses the line of "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" Our MB church leaves participation up to each individual in attendance. It is announced that if you are a born again Christian join in, otherwise let the bread and cup pass you by.
We do have open communion, every week. Sadly, without foot washing.

We also talk about what to do if you cannot take communion for reasons of conscience, and where to find people to talk and pray with after the service.
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Josh
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Re: Salvation issues

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Sudsy wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:Anabaptism has never been defined by accepting devout Catholics as legitimate disciples, though - its history is the exact opposite.

If we all had taken the above approach, Anabaptism wouldn't exist, and we all might as well go back to being Catholic.
I disagree.

I think you can firmly serve Jesus according to your best understanding without judging someone else who has a different understanding. "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" I have been able to serve alongside people with whom I have serious theological disagreements.

But I also think it's important to be clear about what these differences are and not just pretend they do not exist.
Curious - are you allowed to take communion at the church you attend ? I don't get 'closed communion' as this to me crosses the line of "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" Our MB church leaves participation up to each individual in attendance. It is announced that if you are a born again Christian join in, otherwise let the bread and cup pass you by.
I think the Bible speaks rather clearly not to even eat with a self-professed "Christian" who is an immoral person, an adulterer, a swindler.
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Re: Salvation issues

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Josh wrote:I think the Bible speaks rather clearly not to even eat with a self-professed "Christian" who is an immoral person, an adulterer, a swindler.
And I think that many conservative Mennonites want to make sure that they know people well enough to be sure they don't fall into any of these categories before taking communion with them, because they believe that they are participating in that sin if they do. I'm not sure how you can be certain - some sins are hidden. I think this applies to known sins, public sins known to the congregation or private sins known to the leaders.

That's a different reason than closed communion because of denominational boundaries, I think that's what Sudsy was asking about.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

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Bootstrap wrote:
Josh wrote:I think the Bible speaks rather clearly not to even eat with a self-professed "Christian" who is an immoral person, an adulterer, a swindler.
And I think that many conservative Mennonites want to make sure that they know people well enough to be sure they don't fall into any of these categories before taking communion with them, because they believe that they are participating in that sin if they do. I'm not sure how you can be certain - some sins are hidden. I think this applies to known sins, public sins known to the congregation or private sins known to the leaders.

That's a different reason than closed communion because of denominational boundaries, I think that's what Sudsy was asking about.
Correct and now I'm curious on 'Sadly, without foot washing'. Regardless of the setting and practise of that day to wash feet dirtied by dirt roads when one enters your home, you still think that practise is for all NC time ? If yes, is the 'holy kiss' literally applIcable for today also in your beliefs ? Obvious these are not salvation issues, right ?
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:Curious - are you allowed to take communion at the church you attend ? I don't get 'closed communion' as this to me crosses the line of "Who are you to judge another man's servant?" Our MB church leaves participation up to each individual in attendance. It is announced that if you are a born again Christian join in, otherwise let the bread and cup pass you by.
We do have open communion, every week. Sadly, without foot washing.

We also talk about what to do if you cannot take communion for reasons of conscience, and where to find people to talk and pray with after the service.
Is it a commonly held belief that the early Church washed each others feet on a weekly basis? I understand they did the communion every Lord's Day, -- I hadn't read about doing the footwashing every week-
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Foot washing is not a salvation issue, but it is something I very much appreciate, and I think that Jesus did mandate it.
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