Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
Heirbyadoption
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Bootstrap wrote:Foot washing is not a salvation issue, but it is something I very much appreciate, and I think that Jesus did mandate it.
Boot, so if Jesus mandated it, but you don't consider it a salvation issue, how do you reconcile the disobedience question? Do we just lose brownie points, a few stars off our crown, etc? I'm not being sarcastic, just using metaphors there, btw. To rephrase the question, if Jesus commanded us to do something and we knowingly refuse to do it, what is the consequence, in your understanding?
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Foot washing is not a salvation issue, but it is something I very much appreciate, and I think that Jesus did mandate it.
Boot, so if Jesus mandated it, but you don't consider it a salvation issue, how do you reconcile the disobedience question? Do we just lose brownie points, a few stars off our crown, etc? I'm not being sarcastic, just using metaphors there, btw. To rephrase the question, if Jesus commanded us to do something and we knowingly refuse to do it, what is the consequence, in your understanding?
My church does not consider it an ordinance to be observed with regular communion. I do. There are other places where I disagree with my church's understandings.
lesterb wrote:Like I used to say on MennoDiscuss in the good old days, you need to chose a congregation as a package. If that package results in what you think is right and biblical, then you can live with some things you don't care for. I've seen too many people walk away from the package because they didn't like the color of string it was bound with.
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MaxPC
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by MaxPC »

Heirbyadoption wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Foot washing is not a salvation issue, but it is something I very much appreciate, and I think that Jesus did mandate it.
Boot, so if Jesus mandated it, but you don't consider it a salvation issue, how do you reconcile the disobedience question? Do we just lose brownie points, a few stars off our crown, etc? I'm not being sarcastic, just using metaphors there, btw. To rephrase the question, if Jesus commanded us to do something and we knowingly refuse to do it, what is the consequence, in your understanding?
Those commandments from Jesus are non-negotiables, in my understanding. Obedience is paramount to our inheritance of mercy.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:
Heirbyadoption wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:Foot washing is not a salvation issue, but it is something I very much appreciate, and I think that Jesus did mandate it.
Boot, so if Jesus mandated it, but you don't consider it a salvation issue, how do you reconcile the disobedience question? Do we just lose brownie points, a few stars off our crown, etc? I'm not being sarcastic, just using metaphors there, btw. To rephrase the question, if Jesus commanded us to do something and we knowingly refuse to do it, what is the consequence, in your understanding?
Those commandments from Jesus are non-negotiables, in my understanding. Obedience is paramount to our inheritance of mercy.
So how do you reconcile this with being a member of the Catholic church, where members do not wash each other's feet? Do you believe the Catholic church is walking in disobedience?

I know about Maundy Thursday services where the priest washes the feet of the laity, but that's different from the Anabaptist understanding of this passage, where Jesus tells us we "must wash each other's feet." And do you think this means just once a year?
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Wayne in Maine »

I'm going to toss a monkey wrench into this discussion since the idea has cropped up that anything Jesus told us to do (like foot washing) might very well be a salvation issue.

Jesus told a rich man to sell his possessions and give to the poor as a condition for his salvation ("to obtain the kingdom of heaven). What say ye? Are all rich people supposed to sell their possessions? How rich do you have to be to obey that command?

It's an old issue that I have dropped into discussions before, but it's a good question in the context of this topic.
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MaxPC
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by MaxPC »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I'm going to toss a monkey wrench into this discussion since the idea has cropped up that anything Jesus told us to do (like foot washing) might very well be a salvation issue.

Jesus told a rich man to sell his possessions and give to the poor as a condition for his salvation ("to obtain the kingdom of heaven). What say ye? Are all rich people supposed to sell their possessions? How rich do you have to be to obey that command?

It's an old issue that I have dropped into discussions before, but it's a good question in the context of this topic.
Great question, Wayne. It also brings up other questions:
-How do we know about another's monetary wealth without breaching confidentiality laws?
-Conversely, can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?
-Did any of the original 12 or early church teachers have wealth?
-Conversely does being poor automatically make one a Christian?
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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ohio jones
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by ohio jones »

MaxPC wrote:-Conversely, can we honestly say that any of the people listed on the "world's wealthiest" lists are de facto practicing Christians?
"Oh, I've taken a vow of poverty. These billions of euros I control belong to the church, not to me."
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Wayne in Maine wrote:I'm going to toss a monkey wrench into this discussion since the idea has cropped up that anything Jesus told us to do (like foot washing) might very well be a salvation issue.

Jesus told a rich man to sell his possessions and give to the poor as a condition for his salvation ("to obtain the kingdom of heaven). What say ye? Are all rich people supposed to sell their possessions? How rich do you have to be to obey that command?

It's an old issue that I have dropped into discussions before, but it's a good question in the context of this topic.
:lol: I knew it would come up again. Like my pet one on lifting up holy hands in prayer. Again it goes back to whether something is meant for the immediate audience only or for all followers for all time ? Is it a literal command or is there a meaning to apply that is not to act out in the stated literal sense ?

I believe what Jesus told the rich man has to do with holding unto things that are of more value than following Christ. In other words idolatry which is a salvation issue. No repentance. The foot washing thing is obvious to me a practise of that era not required today but the spirit of humility toward each other still remains and we should find ways to act out that in our current culture.

If we can only be saved by perfect obedience to everything Jesus commanded then we are depending on our own works to save us and not the finished work of Christ. And since none of us are perfectly obedient to everything Jesus said and somethings we disobey willfully, none of us will be saved. I would like to meet any Christian who thinks they are living all the commands of Jesus perfectly. Obedience is important but we can't take a few scriptures regarding obedience and ignore others that say we are still flawed humans.

4th verse on My Hope is Built on Nothing Less -

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found,
Clothed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne!
On Christ, the solid Rock, I stand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

I am saved because God looks at me through Jesus as faultless. Wow, love so amazing !!!!
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Bootstrap
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Bootstrap »

Sudsy wrote:The foot washing thing is obvious to me a practise of that era not required today but the spirit of humility toward each other still remains and we should find ways to act out that in our current culture.
Such as?
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Bootstrap wrote:
Sudsy wrote:The foot washing thing is obvious to me a practise of that era not required today but the spirit of humility toward each other still remains and we should find ways to act out that in our current culture.
Such as?
Our previous MB pastor would work in the kitchen and often went around the room topping up everyone's coffee. I think taking opportunities wherever we find them to serve others within the community and having a humble attitude around others. As scripture says preferring one another above ourselves. Don't rush for the best seats or being first to be served at a meal but prefer others to have first choices. If someone, perhaps visitor, sits in your seat at church, or takes your favourite parking place, don't fuss about it. And if they come back next week and take over these things, be glad to give it up. Always look for opportunities to do something for another person in the fellowship regardless of how much it is something you don't like to do. Offer to be a part time janitor. Volunteer for yard upkeep. Give up of our time to visit someone and spend time listening rather than talking. Pick up people for church. Take them to appointments.Those kind of unselfish acts for others I think show that we are not above doing anything for the benefit of others like the washing of feet that Jesus said they should do for each other rather than get some third party to do.
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