Salvation issues

General Christian Theology
cmbl
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by cmbl »

As regards "salvation issues," I would ask, what is our vision of the judgment? Most of the time when I hear someone mention "salvation issues," that person's vision of the judgment is the one that Adam recalls "evangelizing" people with. If, on the other hand, one's vision of the judgment is as depicted in Matthew 7, 13, and 25, one will be led to a completely different set of "salvation issues," if one even attempts to list them.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Yes, I think the scriptures reflect this. However, what was the 'order' under the OC is not the 'order' of the NC in how I interpret it.
Would an order that was instituted at creation still be relevant to-day?
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
I would really love to see one of you men of God, take this article, read it- and kindly point out the incorrect assumptions it is making about this- it's incredibly easy to see- if one would go through paragraphy by paragraphy with the correct view & response please?
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Yes, I think the scriptures reflect this. However, what was the 'order' under the OC is not the 'order' of the NC in how I interpret it.
Would an order that was instituted at creation still be relevant to-day?
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
You're talking examples from Scripture?
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Would an order that was instituted at creation still be relevant to-day?
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
I would really love to see one of you men of God, take this article, read it- and kindly point out the incorrect assumptions it is making about this- it's incredibly easy to see- if one would go through paragraphy by paragraphy with the correct view & response please?
Valerie, the problem is, we know from past experience that it won't be accepted. Each of us has blind spots, some of us have wilful blind spots. If a plain reading of Scripture is not enough, further debate becomes pointless.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
If this issue constituted part of the created order and God’s ideal, we would not find counter-examples of it. However, the Bible contains many examples of women exercising spiritual authority over men. Since we have so many examples is enough to prove to me that the prohibition against women being spiritual leaders is cultural, not timeless.

Here is an Anabaptist preacher and pastor giving this view - http://reknew.org/2016/06/thoughts-women-ministry/
I would really love to see one of you men of God, take this article, read it- and kindly point out the incorrect assumptions it is making about this- it's incredibly easy to see- if one would go through paragraphy by paragraphy with the correct view & response please?
Valerie, the problem is, we know from past experience that it won't be accepted. Each of us has blind spots, some of us have wilful blind spots. If a plain reading of Scripture is not enough, further debate becomes pointless.
I don't know- I think that from what I read in the early church, they had to do a lot of battle against heresies that infiltrated the Church- and wrote a lot of rebuttal to them, addressing them one by one- this is how I learned some things, by reading these- much of what i learned was really in answer TO heresies-
I think it would be a good exercise at least- since the article was presented- there's plenty of wisdom & knowledge here to be able to answer to that article well- thinking the early Anabaptists were great 'debaters' if I remember right- reading their earliest days in their history-

But I understand if you want to let it alone.
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silentreader
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by silentreader »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I would really love to see one of you men of God, take this article, read it- and kindly point out the incorrect assumptions it is making about this- it's incredibly easy to see- if one would go through paragraphy by paragraphy with the correct view & response please?
Valerie, the problem is, we know from past experience that it won't be accepted. Each of us has blind spots, some of us have wilful blind spots. If a plain reading of Scripture is not enough, further debate becomes pointless.
I don't know- I think that from what I read in the early church, they had to do a lot of battle against heresies that infiltrated the Church- and wrote a lot of rebuttal to them, addressing them one by one- this is how I learned some things, by reading these- much of what i learned was really in answer TO heresies-
I think it would be a good exercise at least- since the article was presented- there's plenty of wisdom & knowledge here to be able to answer to that article well- thinking the early Anabaptists were great 'debaters' if I remember right- reading their earliest days in their history-

But I understand if you want to let it alone.
I guess in my opinion the difference today is that some heresies are the mainstream position.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I would really love to see one of you men of God, take this article, read it- and kindly point out the incorrect assumptions it is making about this- it's incredibly easy to see- if one would go through paragraphy by paragraphy with the correct view & response please?
Valerie, the problem is, we know from past experience that it won't be accepted. Each of us has blind spots, some of us have wilful blind spots. If a plain reading of Scripture is not enough, further debate becomes pointless.
I don't know- I think that from what I read in the early church, they had to do a lot of battle against heresies that infiltrated the Church- and wrote a lot of rebuttal to them, addressing them one by one- this is how I learned some things, by reading these- much of what i learned was really in answer TO heresies-
I think it would be a good exercise at least- since the article was presented- there's plenty of wisdom & knowledge here to be able to answer to that article well- thinking the early Anabaptists were great 'debaters' if I remember right- reading their earliest days in their history-

But I understand if you want to let it alone.
Valerie, do you believe a woman who believes she is called and gifted to preach the Gospel and reaching the lost is in a dangerous position regarding her salvation ?
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
silentreader wrote:
Valerie, the problem is, we know from past experience that it won't be accepted. Each of us has blind spots, some of us have wilful blind spots. If a plain reading of Scripture is not enough, further debate becomes pointless.
I don't know- I think that from what I read in the early church, they had to do a lot of battle against heresies that infiltrated the Church- and wrote a lot of rebuttal to them, addressing them one by one- this is how I learned some things, by reading these- much of what i learned was really in answer TO heresies-
I think it would be a good exercise at least- since the article was presented- there's plenty of wisdom & knowledge here to be able to answer to that article well- thinking the early Anabaptists were great 'debaters' if I remember right- reading their earliest days in their history-

But I understand if you want to let it alone.
Valerie, do you believe a woman who believes she is called and gifted to preach the Gospel and reaching the lost is in a dangerous position regarding her salvation ?
IF you are meaning in a pastoral role- Yes, because if she is able to be deceived like Eve was in believing a lie- (which is why Paul said the woman was not to have authority over the man, and this had nothing to do with 'culture')- then she is capable of being deceived in many areas- and not teaching truth- but her own understanding of it, and believing God is calling her, which would be confusing people- so if she is not being obedient to Him, then who is she being obedient to? Who is the one calling her to disobey?

Evangelizing and sharing the Gospel, is not the same thing as being the pastor of the Church and yes I believe women are to use their gifts to evangelize, share the Gospel, and reach the lost among many other ways to be used in ministering, but not being a minister.
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Sudsy
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Sudsy »

Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Valerie, do you believe a woman who believes she is called and gifted to preach the Gospel and reaching the lost is in a dangerous position regarding her salvation ?
IF you are meaning in a pastoral role- Yes, because if she is able to be deceived like Eve was in believing a lie- (which is why Paul said the woman was not to have authority over the man, and this had nothing to do with 'culture')- then she is capable of being deceived in many areas- and not teaching truth- but her own understanding of it, and believing God is calling her, which would be confusing people- so if she is not being obedient to Him, then who is she being obedient to? Who is the one calling her to disobey?

Evangelizing and sharing the Gospel, is not the same thing as being the pastor of the Church and yes I believe women are to use their gifts to evangelize, share the Gospel, and reach the lost among many other ways to be used in ministering, but not being a minister.
So, if a woman is capable of being deceived (like Eve), then why should she be allowed to prophesy, interpret tongues, teach children in Sunday School, be a missionary or do anything in the church ? Why should I believe what you are telling me here because women are so easily deceived ? You know I do think you are no more capable of being deceived than any man but in that day that this letter was written women were not educated like the men in spiritual matters and they could be more easily deceived.

I really find it hard to understand that the lady pastor whose preaching and teachings our whole family was saved and discipled under might be lost because she took the role of a pastor. If you knew her and her love for the Lord, I think you might have a hard time sticking with your belief on that. I previously thought you believed one could lose their salvation only on turning their back on Jesus as Saviour but seems I mis-understood.
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Valerie
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Re: Salvation issues

Post by Valerie »

Sudsy wrote:
Valerie wrote:
Sudsy wrote:
Valerie, do you believe a woman who believes she is called and gifted to preach the Gospel and reaching the lost is in a dangerous position regarding her salvation ?
IF you are meaning in a pastoral role- Yes, because if she is able to be deceived like Eve was in believing a lie- (which is why Paul said the woman was not to have authority over the man, and this had nothing to do with 'culture')- then she is capable of being deceived in many areas- and not teaching truth- but her own understanding of it, and believing God is calling her, which would be confusing people- so if she is not being obedient to Him, then who is she being obedient to? Who is the one calling her to disobey?

Evangelizing and sharing the Gospel, is not the same thing as being the pastor of the Church and yes I believe women are to use their gifts to evangelize, share the Gospel, and reach the lost among many other ways to be used in ministering, but not being a minister.
So, if a woman is capable of being deceived (like Eve), then why should she be allowed to prophesy, interpret tongues, teach children in Sunday School, be a missionary or do anything in the church ? Why should I believe what you are telling me here because women are so easily deceived ? You know I do think you are no more capable of being deceived than any man but in that day that this letter was written women were not educated like the men in spiritual matters and they could be more easily deceived.

I really find it hard to understand that the lady pastor whose preaching and teachings our whole family was saved and discipled under might be lost because she took the role of a pastor. If you knew her and her love for the Lord, I think you might have a hard time sticking with your belief on that. I previously thought you believed one could lose their salvation only on turning their back on Jesus as Saviour but seems I mis-understood.
Sudsy, you're speaking as if "I" am the one who said the woman can be deceived- forgetting that it was Apostle Paul who stated this- but really, before Apostle Paul, it was God. Of course deception is not 'gender specific', we have seen throughout time, that both genders can be deceived. Consider Genesis 3- this that God has said has nothing to do with "education"

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. 14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. 17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Consider with this, 1 Corinthians 11:
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man.

What do you conclude from this Sudsy? Does 'education' have anything to do with this? Education didn't have anything to do with the Apostles that Jesus sent to build His Church- in fact, He chose 'uneducated' men. He could have just as easily brought women into this group of men, and taught them the same things, that He taught the uneducated fishermen, for example- indeed there were very Godly women around at that time! Who Jesus chose to build His Church was not dependent on education, and yes- many women were used in the Church that was being built- to help build. But never did they have pastoral roles, even though they had gifts, spiritual gifts, ministering gifts, hospitality gifts, etc-
A woman who truly desires to please the Lord would not step out of the commandments in disobedience, although she could 'think' she is being called to a pastoral role- and the message of the Gospel may reach others, but then look what happens? These same Churches are bringing other sins of disobedience into these churches that allowed women pastors- I don't know- to me it seems quite obvious. You cannot get around the fact, that women were not to have "Authority" over the men in a Church (or marriage) and how a woman can read the Scriptures and not realize this is puzzling- except for I know the way the enemy of our soul works best is to mix the Truth with a lie.
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