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Josh wrote:Progressive Amish groups like the people in Maine who are open to outsiders - and outside ideas - often absorb modern eschatology. For example, one of the families up there simply has the same eschatological beliefs they had before they became Amish. The Amish generally speaking aren't focused on purity of beliefs about things that don't impact actual practice. As they become more fundamentalist and progressive, they will tend to focus a lot more on purity of belief whilst relaxing actual practice.

This particular OO Amish group is somewhat unique- I've mentioned before- (they require mustaches AND beards)
However, they're very strict on the reading material one reads- they will make you get rid of books that bring in these ideas that don't line up with OO foundational belief/practice- almost like the burning of the occult books in Acts for new converts-
That does not 'limit' conversations about Scriptures- the reason there are so many views on this topic is because eschatology is difficult anyways- I had read, that the book of Revelations was somewhat avoided in the early days of the Church (of course it was written decadces after the Church had begun and spread) but it was so difficult & controversial, it was not read in the Church like the other Gospels and epistles.-
That being said, when you try to tie in all the OT Prophesies with the NT Prophesies (or Jesus statements and the Apostles, regarding the end times) - we have the situation where there is not ONE voice on these interpretations-
A lot of OO Amish, did not used to read the Bible as a whole, and try to interpret for themselves- in fact one of the reasons MAP was started was because reading the Bible was discouraged- Bible studies among the brethren, was discouraged-
They did not want any members misinterpreting the Scriptures, or reinterpreting according to their own thinking and drawing their own conclusions- this is very much the same reason Catholics used to be discouraged from reading the Scriptures on their own (at least that's what I've been told) but they began having Bible Studies as well-

I don't know if there is an "End Times" type of teaching or books among the Anabaptists-
I know there are books by for example the Orthodox- and I find their interpretations about eschatology quite different than the Pentecostals of the day, which led more and more to my distrust of the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement- you can kind of see where they took certain Scriptures and were led astray- not to mention Darby, and Scofield who reinterpreted ALL the Bible to fit their eschatology and those beliefs spread like wildfire throughout Christendom and Scofield Bibles flew off the shelf and are still used in todays Evangelical groups- and Pentecostal groups-

But even still, to me personally, I find that Jesus gave us signs and seasons and the Apostles told us what to watch for as well so WE would be watchful- but as an Orthodox priest said to me- we have been watching for 2000 years and tend not to assume this or that happening, means we are at the end- but from what I understand- even they now believe we are very close- as country by country is falling away from the Christianity they once had- and turning from, and twisting the truth.

ken_sylvania wrote:

Josh wrote:I'm not sure why you'd say YorkAndAdams isn't CA?

Probably because his affiliation is listed on his profile as "Intermediate Con"

Yes that is why- I have a difficult time distinguishing all the sects- so I assumed if he was CA he would have put CA as his affiliation- my bad- my other post just now was to reply to what Josh said regarding the AMish in Maine I brought up-

Actually, there was a pretty consistent eschatology amongst Christians since the beginning. Holdemans, Old Order Amish, and Eastern Orthodox have the exact same eschatology, for example.

Ideas like the rapture and premillennialism in general are a relatively recent invention. Before John Darby decided to invent his own commentary on what the Bible actually says, most people were content being amillenial or postmillenial.

Occasional fringe cults (like Münsterites) would adopt premillennial views, along with very bad fruit. One of these fruits is a strong appetite for warfare, which I see today in premillennialists who think we somehow need to influence U.S. government policy to somehow make happenings in Israel fulfil prophecy so that Jesus will come back.

Its about as far from living in Jesus' kingdom as you can get.

Valerie wrote:

cmbl wrote: Intermediate conservative (conservative Beachy, Hope Fellowship, Pilgrim Conference, Northeastern, etc.). So CA.

Yes that is why- I have a difficult time distinguishing all the sects- so I assumed if he was CA he would have put CA as his affiliation- my bad- my other post just now was to reply to what Josh said regarding the AMish in Maine I brought up-

Clarified my abbreviation. No problem Valerie. Thanks to everyone who explained it!

I just didn't think there would be an entire thread devoted to my affiliation.

YorkandAdams wrote:

Valerie wrote:

cmbl wrote: Intermediate conservative (conservative Beachy, Hope Fellowship, Pilgrim Conference, Northeastern, etc.). So CA.

Yes that is why- I have a difficult time distinguishing all the sects- so I assumed if he was CA he would have put CA as his affiliation- my bad- my other post just now was to reply to what Josh said regarding the AMish in Maine I brought up-

Clarified my abbreviation. No problem Valerie. Thanks to everyone who explained it!

I just didn't think there would be an entire thread devoted to my affiliation.

Well, thanks! It does help, I think I have learned what most of the acronyms mean but not all- so we learn more (kind of,all these various names above really doesn't explain it to seekers though, what each one really believes and their differences that cause for the various designations)

It takes me WAY back 10 years ago when an evangelical Amish man first introduced me (he was witnessing in Holmes County) to the word 'liberal' pertaining to Anabaptists. He explained although he was OO Amish (by family and by baptism) he had always been more 'liberal'. I remember being really thrown by that statement because I had only been familiar with that term liberal pertaining to 'politics' - well 10 years later I think I have the hang of it-

Josh wrote:Actually, there was a pretty consistent eschatology amongst Christians since the beginning. Holdemans, Old Order Amish, and Eastern Orthodox have the exact same eschatology, for example.

Ideas like the rapture and premillennialism in general are a relatively recent invention. Before John Darby decided to invent his own commentary on what the Bible actually says, most people were content being amillenial or postmillenial.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and many other early church fathers were premillenial. Eusebius describes it as the majority view. Then Augustine came along and popularized amillennialism -- along with just war and proto-Calvinism, so Mennonites who view Augustine with wariness often extend that skepticism to his eschatology.

What is a recent invention is dispensationalism and the pretribulation rapture. Those should be distinguished from historic premillennialism.

ohio jones wrote:

Josh wrote:Actually, there was a pretty consistent eschatology amongst Christians since the beginning. Holdemans, Old Order Amish, and Eastern Orthodox have the exact same eschatology, for example.

Ideas like the rapture and premillennialism in general are a relatively recent invention. Before John Darby decided to invent his own commentary on what the Bible actually says, most people were content being amillenial or postmillenial.

Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Hippolytus, and many other early church fathers were premillenial. Eusebius describes it as the majority view. Then Augustine came along and popularized amillennialism -- along with just war and proto-Calvinism, so Mennonites who view Augustine with wariness often extend that skepticism to his eschatology.

What is a recent invention is dispensationalism and the pretribulation rapture. Those should be distinguished from historic premillennialism.

Are you aware that Eusebius was a Preterist?

EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA
(A.D. 312)

"The Holy Scriptures foretell that there will be unmistakable signs of the Coming of Christ.

Now there were among the Hebrews three outstanding offices of dignity, which made the nation famous, firstly the kingship, secondly that of prophet, and lastly the high priesthood. The prophecies said that the abolition and complete destruction of all these three together would be the sign of the (b) presence of the Christ. And that the proofs that the times had come, would lie in the ceasing of the Mosaic worship, the desolation of Jerusalem and its Temple, and the subjection of the whole Jewish race to its enemies. The holy oracles foretold that all these changes, which had (c) not been made in the days of the prophets of old, would take place at the coming of the Christ, which I will presently shew to have been fulfilled as never before in accordance with the predictions." ( THE PROOF OF THE GOSPEL/DEMONSTRATIO EVANGELICA AD312)

gcdonner wrote:Are you aware that Eusebius was a Preterist?

Yes. He documents premillennialism as the majority view without saying that it is his view.

ohio jones wrote:

gcdonner wrote:Are you aware that Eusebius was a Preterist?

Yes. He documents premillennialism as the majority view without saying that it is his view.

So he thought the majority was wrong?

KingdomBuilder wrote:

ohio jones wrote:

gcdonner wrote:Are you aware that Eusebius was a Preterist?

Yes. He documents premillennialism as the majority view without saying that it is his view.

So he thought the majority was wrong?

He was a historian, not a critic...