MennoNet.com

steve-in-kville wrote:I should clarify that we are not desiring more freedoms... the standards we had were fine with us. What we are after is less emphasis on legalism and man-made rules, but where individual spiritual growth is a priority to the leadership.

"Lack of spirituality" in a church is a common complaint. Conservatives complain about "worldly" liberal congregations. Liberals complain about "spiritually dead" conservative congregations. How do we measure a congregation's interest in spiritual growth? I don't believe that liberal vs. conservative actually equates to alive vs. dead. Are there objective criteria we can look at? What are the signs?
(This is not a reflection on Steve's statement, that's just what got me thinking.)

ken_sylvania wrote:

steve-in-kville wrote:I should clarify that we are not desiring more freedoms... the standards we had were fine with us. What we are after is less emphasis on legalism and man-made rules, but where individual spiritual growth is a priority to the leadership.

"Lack of spirituality" in a church is a common complaint. Conservatives complain about "worldly" liberal congregations. Liberals complain about "spiritually dead" conservative congregations. How do we measure a congregation's interest in spiritual growth? I don't believe that liberal vs. conservative actually equates to alive vs. dead. Are there objective criteria we can look at? What are the signs?
(This is not a reflection on Steve's statement, that's just what got me thinking.)

A servant heart.

I look for the "fruits of the Spirit" and the "wisdom that is from above".

Today I heard John Macarthur say that a sign of spiritual maturity is a growing love for Jesus Christ, I think that's a pretty good measuring tool.

ken_sylvania wrote:

steve-in-kville wrote:I should clarify that we are not desiring more freedoms... the standards we had were fine with us. What we are after is less emphasis on legalism and man-made rules, but where individual spiritual growth is a priority to the leadership.

"Lack of spirituality" in a church is a common complaint. Conservatives complain about "worldly" liberal congregations. Liberals complain about "spiritually dead" conservative congregations. How do we measure a congregation's interest in spiritual growth? I don't believe that liberal vs. conservative actually equates to alive vs. dead. Are there objective criteria we can look at? What are the signs?
(This is not a reflection on Steve's statement, that's just what got me thinking.)

Paul gave us some signs in 1 Cor 3 - Dear brothers and sisters, when I was with you I couldn’t talk to you as I would to spiritual people. Or to people who have the Spirit. I had to talk as though you belonged to this world or as though you were infants in Christ. I had to feed you with milk, not with solid food, because you weren’t ready for anything stronger. And you still aren’t ready, for you are still controlled by your sinful nature. You are jealous of one another and quarrel with each other. Doesn’t that prove you are controlled by your sinful nature? Aren’t you living like people of the world? When one of you says, “I am a follower of Paul,” and another says, “I follow Apollos,” aren’t you acting just like people of the world?


The underlined (mine) indicates those who are not spiritual. Jealousy and quarreling or as the KJV puts it , envy, strife and division in the church. Living according to the old carnal/fleshly nature. A church of quarreling people whether conservative or liberal in their practise is a carnal, non-spiritual church. Christians who can't get along to further the Kingdom of God. Christians who compare their group to other Christ followers in a carnal or worldly attitude. Paul says these kind of people are not spiritual but babes in Christ.

No one is more spiritual than they are obedient.

Personally, I believe if a church is not growing in both quality of being followers and in number of followers than that church is not a spiritually mature church. And when I say quantity it is not through having more children but in a church reaching the unchurched and in time beginning new churches. A church living under the control of the Holy Spirit will be a growing church in both quality of disciples and in number of disciples.

A church that measures up spiritually will also be retaining most of its young people. Bringing in new believers does not make up for losing your own.

A thread about me. Cool.

As some know, I came out of the COB and went quite a bit more conservative. I've been exposed to all stripes for the past almost 25 years. Here's a gauge I use when I meet people: Are their works (actions) a result of what is going on in the heart? Or are they doing works (actions) to appear spiritual?

I will bring up dress... if they dress quite a bit more conservative than others in their church, there's a really good chance they are hiding something. And they are trying to compensate by *appearing* to be more spiritual by dressing more conservative. Hang around plain people long enough and you'll soon discover who is being true to themselves and who is not.

1 John measures spirituality mostly by (1) love shown in action and (2) holy obedience. I think that's about right.

But both are hard to measure by the outside of the cup. That's one of the reasons it usually takes a year or so for me to get a feel for the spirituality of a person or a church. And I suspect our religious traditions can sometimes have different ways of measuring both.

I think it might be helpful to simply study each place that the word mature is used by studying the entire passage in context. For instance:

Hebrews 5:14 wrote:But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

That implies that spiritual maturity comes from constantly discerning good from evil, not just obeying a set of rules - no matter how many or few rules a church has. And I think mentoring relationships or small prayerful discernment groups can be really helpful for teaching people how to do this. So one question I ask when I consider joining a church: how do people learn to grow in discernment, including discernment of their own lives? Another: How do people learn to grow in love?