John 8:30-48

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lesterb
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John 8:30-48

Post by lesterb »

In John 8 we see Jesus dialoging with the Pharisees. In verse 30 we see many believing. In verse 31 Jesus speaks directly to those who believed in Him. He tells them to continue in His word, and they would know the truth and the truth would set them free. This statement turns everything topsy turvy, and by the time the discussion gets to verse 48, these same people are accusing Him of being a demon possessed Samaritan? [at least the context would appear this way]

So did these people change their mind that quickly? Is there a shift in the audience with the Pharisees taking over the dialog in v.33? Is there something missing here in the text that would bridge this? Notice how the discussion gradually turns hostile as you go down through this passage.
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haithabu
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by haithabu »

I take it that Jesus was speaking to mixed company because the text immediately before records an exchange with the Pharisees. The confrontation continues in this passage with the Pharisees continuing to interject to interrupt Jesus' teaching. The reason I think that the objectors were the Pharisees rather than the believers whom he had addressed is because Jesus went on to say to them in verse 37: "...yet you seek to kill me".

So when it says that they answered him, I take it to be a generalized "they" referring to the bystanders as a whole rather than the those who believed.
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silentreader
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by silentreader »

lesterb wrote:In John 8 we see Jesus dialoging with the Pharisees. In verse 30 we see many believing. In verse 31 Jesus speaks directly to those who believed in Him. He tells them to continue in His word, and they would know the truth and the truth would set them free. This statement turns everything topsy turvy, and by the time the discussion gets to verse 48, these same people are accusing Him of being a demon possessed Samaritan? [at least the context would appear this way]

So did these people change their mind that quickly? Is there a shift in the audience with the Pharisees taking over the dialog in v.33? Is there something missing here in the text that would bridge this? Notice how the discussion gradually turns hostile as you go down through this passage.
Resistance to truth is more common than we may care to admit, even in our circles.
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Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
MaxPC
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by MaxPC »

silentreader wrote:
lesterb wrote:In John 8 we see Jesus dialoging with the Pharisees. In verse 30 we see many believing. In verse 31 Jesus speaks directly to those who believed in Him. He tells them to continue in His word, and they would know the truth and the truth would set them free. This statement turns everything topsy turvy, and by the time the discussion gets to verse 48, these same people are accusing Him of being a demon possessed Samaritan? [at least the context would appear this way]

So did these people change their mind that quickly? Is there a shift in the audience with the Pharisees taking over the dialog in v.33? Is there something missing here in the text that would bridge this? Notice how the discussion gradually turns hostile as you go down through this passage.
Resistance to truth is more common than we may care to admit, even in our circles.
Amen :up:
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Bootstrap
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by Bootstrap »

Hmmmm, let's take a look ...
John 8:30-48 (ESV) wrote:As he was saying these things, many believed in him.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”
Jesus is speaking specifically to the Jews who had believed him, not some other group. And they are at least confused, but probably offended, when Jesus says that they - good religious folks that they are - are enslaved and need to be set free by the truth.
Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”
He is speaking to the same group, Jews who had come to believe in him. And he is speaking to them as a group - I suspect not all wanted to kill him, but some did. And he seems to be pushing them away as he speaks by being very, very clear.

I suspect that their initial belief was superficial, and Jesus is putting it to the test.
They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham's children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me.
It's not clear to me exactly what Jesus was accusing them of, but certainly part of it is that they just don't get it, they don't believe him, they want to defend their religious turf more than they want to be transformed disciples.
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”
Sigh. I really wish I could say that there is no lying or deception among Christians. I think it would be truer to say that every one of us deceives ourself almost every day, and only the Holy Spirit can show us the truth. Self-deception is a major theme in John, from the beginning to the end of the Gospel, with God trying to reveal himself to people who do not recognize him and just don't get it. Even the disciples just don't get it. Even after the resurrection.

So along with repenting for sin, I think we should lay down our own self-deception in prayer every day. It is so easy to build a religious, self-righteous wall around our own self-deception. "I praise God that I'm not like that tax collector over there", because I get it, and he doesn't ... that's a peculiar form of self-righteousness that is sometimes confused with having certainty in our faith.
The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?”
These days, we usually reserve that for each other ... we're less likely to say that directly to Jesus.
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lesterb
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by lesterb »

Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32 NKJV)
A friend of mine was following his GPS through a rural area he had never visited before. It took him down some rough back roads, then finally told him to turn left into a dry creek bed. Now it is possible that this route would have led him to where he wanted to go, but he would have had to walk. So, the GPS had given him a route that looked good on screen but didn’t work in real life, at least for him.

So, was it telling him the truth, or a lie?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of ideas about truth floating around to day that are pretty similar. They look good on a computer screen, or in a book. Hypothetically, they make sense. But when you try to make them work in real life, they prove to be a lie. Or if they are true, in a sense, they are not practical enough to use in real life, which still makes them a lie.

So, if an idea works, does that make it truth? Do some lies work? Are there some truths that don't work?
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silentreader
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Re: John 8:30-48

Post by silentreader »

lesterb wrote:
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (John 8:31-32 NKJV)
A friend of mine was following his GPS through a rural area he had never visited before. It took him down some rough back roads, then finally told him to turn left into a dry creek bed. Now it is possible that this route would have led him to where he wanted to go, but he would have had to walk. So, the GPS had given him a route that looked good on screen but didn’t work in real life, at least for him.

So, was it telling him the truth, or a lie?

Unfortunately, there are a lot of ideas about truth floating around to day that are pretty similar. They look good on a computer screen, or in a book. Hypothetically, they make sense. But when you try to make them work in real life, they prove to be a lie. Or if they are true, in a sense, they are not practical enough to use in real life, which still makes them a lie.

So, if an idea works, does that make it truth? Do some lies work? Are there some truths that don't work?
The thing that needs to be factored in as well is time.
Does this truth/lie 'work' short-term? are there different results/consequences long-term?
God's truth is eternal, but without that perspective, sometimes it seems to fail short-term.
On the obverse, lies sometimes seem to 'work' short-term, but may have unforeseen negative eternal consequences.
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Noah was a conspiracy theorist...and then it began to rain.~Unknown
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