Charlottesville

General Christian Theology
Sudsy
Posts: 5859
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Charlottesville

Post by Sudsy »

RZehr wrote:Maybe troubling would be a better word. :)

We can pray for the ones involved. If I lived in Charlotte, I suppose I would have opportunity to have conversations with people that are involved, perhaps on both sides of the issue. I would invite both sides to be willing to suffer wrongs, instead of fighting for that elusive "justice". Maybe listen to people, lend them my ear.

As it is, I don't really know what there is for me to say that would have any beneficial affect whatsoever on this situation.
I believe that we are most effective and most heard outside the national conversations where there are so many voices yelling that we have difficulty even being heard.
I would rather the spotlight find us for our good deeds, instead of running around to each national incident and trying to inject ourselves into the conversation.

But I'm really not dogmatic on this. I would be slow to criticize anyone trying to help the situation.
My thoughts are similar and I would try to steer the conversations to knowing The Prince of Peace. Peacemaking, imo, for a Christian is about a relationship with Jesus that brings peace to our hearts whatever else is going on around us. I don't see much value in denunciations as Jesus said He did not come to condemn the world but the world through Him might be saved.

I don't think we need to go where we know there is a good chance to conflict but when we go to share our faith we should expect that in itself can create conflict. As scripture says the Gospel is offensive to hear until the person is receptive to the Holy Spirit convicting man of sin.

Some may argue that Jesus was 'in your face' with how He handled the religious leaders of His day and did denounce hypocritical religion and I would suggest to them that although He used some pretty blunt language, He did not use violence (and some here might use the temple cleaning argument against that) but He did tell His disciples that when the Gospel was rejected to just move on to seek those who would listen. I don't see where He supported continued 'in your face' evangelism.

If we really believe Jesus is the answer, I think we will focus on Him being the answer in how we respond to unpeaceful situations.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Charlottesville

Post by MaxPC »

RZehr wrote:Maybe troubling would be a better word. :)

We can pray for the ones involved. If I lived in Charlotte, I suppose I would have opportunity to have conversations with people that are involved, perhaps on both sides of the issue. I would invite both sides to be willing to suffer wrongs, instead of fighting for that elusive "justice". Maybe listen to people, lend them my ear.

As it is, I don't really know what there is for me to say that would have any beneficial affect whatsoever on this situation.
I believe that we are most effective and most heard outside the national conversations where there are so many voices yelling that we have difficulty even being heard.
I would rather the spotlight find us for our good deeds, instead of running around to each national incident and trying to inject ourselves into the conversation.


But I'm really not dogmatic on this. I would be slow to criticize anyone trying to help the situation.
:up: :up: Well said, RZehr.

As a point of spiritual leadership and guidance directed to the 89 million Roman Catholics in the USA, our Bishops issued a statement calling all Catholics to prayers for peace and for those involved.

Whenever we face crises, our Bishops are responsible for guiding our large flock spiritually with Catholic teachings on the matter. If you're interested, you can read their entire statement at their official website so that you don't have to put up with the opinionating editorials by secular sources that have political agendas and spin. Here's the original and complete text.

For the Catholic man or woman in the pew, we are called to pray for all and assist with comfort where we can rather than spending time debating.
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
temporal1
Posts: 16279
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

ken_sylvania wrote:
temporal1 wrote: i have thought about the young woman killed. esp about how, if only she'd spent the day washing her hair and doing her laundry, she might have had many more Saturdays ahead of her to spend with family+friends. it's not worth it. stay away from crowds that have the potential to turn violent. people often do not behave normally in those situations. don't feed the beasts.
Many in the early Church were martyred due to their refusal to "go home and stay away from the crowds."
They had the good news of salvation and couldn't help but proclaim it, even in the face of violent opposition. Think of Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

I don't know anything about the young woman who was killed or what her reason for being there was, but I don't think that avoiding all conflicting situations is necessarily scriptural.

Nor do I think the Scriptures teach that we should all go and seek to interject ourselves into conflicts like this.
agreed.
(i read) a statement from her father saying she was a "born do-gooder," which can translate into, "i'm right, and you're wrong, and, now, i'm going to force my opinion on you."

my reference to washing hair and doing laundry was a personal note-to-self.
once, as a young woman, i "got into trouble" one summer Saturday night, spent the evening explaining myself to police, and fearing loss of personal freedom (jail.) it was not about sharing Truth.

it all went ok. i left, a free person ..
but! - as i walked out of the police station that BEAUTIFUL summer night, i thought to myself .. "i wasted an evening doing this, which could have led to even worse, when i could have freely chosen to - wash my hair and do my laundry."

it's amazing how exquisite the small freedoms in life become, when threat of losing them is present.

this young woman, with her law education, had options.
at this moment, i will presume her family would love to go back and remove her from this "party."

i believe we are remiss to overlook the "party" aspect of many of these skirmishes.

these young people are strong+able, enjoy life they freely inherited without personal sacrifice, they are well fed and strong, well educated, own expensive techie gadgets galore ..
imho, they represent the least oppressed "victims" in history .. :-|

but, it's fun to gather in groups for public display, sowing wild oats (i suppose) .. evidently, some are paid to do it.

my belief is, had the counter protestors not shown up, this demonstration would have received zero airtime - these groups have been rejected by society (forever.)
the counter protestors, without permit to be present, have not done their argument any good at all. the media loves the circus.

they are having a lot of fun, not winning souls. :-|
i know there are arguments attempting to dignify these skirmishes comparing them to historical events. i'm not convinced. sounds like the old law school reasoning: finding legal precedence to justify, even when it's a real stretch.

fighting is a lot of fun for a lot of people. they love the physical part of it. :shock:
even without purpose, it's entertainment. some live in a culture of violence, it's their normal.
if not, there are far more effective routes available: bor-ing.

i'm not saying it's "all" about the party. i am saying, that aspect of it should not be ignored. :-|
these young people and their devices .. are often up to no good.

most of us survive our youthful lapses in judgment. not all do.
(i believe) every older person has memories of moments they might not have survived.
some probably due to poor judgment, inexperience.

tragic for this young woman's family. tragic all-around.

the driver's mother, in a wheelchair, tried to get help for her son over years.
there is little or no help. the system protects the insane and criminals, nothing happens until/unless someone(s) get killed. the signs are there, reports are made, help is requested, nothing is done. people in need are mainstreamed, until they are arrested for criminal offenses. then, the revolving door.

lots of fails.
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by PeterG »

Temp, honest question: Why have you been so much more critical of the woman who was killed than of the man who allegedly killed her?
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

RZehr wrote:We can pray for the ones involved.
We can all pray. I suppose it's hard to offer comfort from a distance. But this is a national problem, not a local problem, the armed militias and extremist groups that came to Charlottesville were from all over the country, and were organized at a national level. Few were from Charlottesville. Many of the counter protesters were also from outside of Charlottesville. If the forums on extremist sites are any indication, we are going to see more incidents like this one.

It is certainly reverberating where I live in Durham, where a mob tore down a Confederate statue. People are grieving and angry. These are the people I have conversations with.
RZehr wrote:As it is, I don't really know what there is for me to say that would have any beneficial affect whatsoever on this situation.

I believe that we are most effective and most heard outside the national conversations where there are so many voices yelling that we have difficulty even being heard
I'm not sure what we say is always the most important thing. I'm not sure what is. I suspect some things are worth saying - here in the South, I have reminded people several times that this is not just a peaceful disagreement about whether a Confederate statue should remain in a park. There are democratic ways to decide things like that. They don't involve domestic terrorism.
RZehr wrote:I would rather the spotlight find us for our good deeds, instead of running around to each national incident and trying to inject ourselves into the conversation.
But I suspect that we need to find good deeds that match what is going on around us, if we are going to be serious peacemakers. And I'm not sure what those good deeds are.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
temporal1
Posts: 16279
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 12:09 pm
Location: U.S. midwest and PNW
Affiliation: Christian other

Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

PeterG wrote:Temp, honest question: Why have you been so much more critical of the woman who was killed than of the man who allegedly killed her?
i don't intend to be critical of her; i might identify with her, and, i do not care for that identity. i've stated before, i'm so glad the internet and social media were not available in prior times. young people do things they later regret, they grow up.

"young people" now often includes those into their 40's .. versus in former times, "adults" would have included 16-18 year olds, with expectations of responsibility to match.

the world is growing political activists who know little about what they're acting for/against.
there's a lot of ego involved.

i do wince at big strong able well-fed people claiming oppression.
i doubt their ability to understand the meaning of the word.
today, it seems to mean they want more gov money and special privileges. "more" being the operative word.

the driver .. patently wrong. no brainer.
from what i read this morning, he was a train wreck looking for a place to happen - as so many of these horrible "events" turn out to be.

i feel sorry for his mother. she was abused by him, little or nothing was done.
as a culture, we fail to identify and appropriately respond to deeply troubled people - until someone is killed. there are so many examples - are there any exceptions?!
what more is there to say about him? i hope his mother is, at last, protected from him? i do.

as well, there is a formal investigation underway. it usually takes a couple of months or more. i hope it will be an in-depth investigation of all involved. i can't envision the driver being charged with less than vehicular manslaughter. i don't know.

does that help?
Last edited by temporal1 on Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
0 x
Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
UNKNOWN
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

ken_sylvania wrote:Many in the early Church were martyred due to their refusal to "go home and stay away from the crowds." They had the good news of salvation and couldn't help but proclaim it, even in the face of violent opposition. Think of Stephen, the first Christian martyr.

I don't know anything about the young woman who was killed or what her reason for being there was, but I don't think that avoiding all conflicting situations is necessarily scriptural. Nor do I think the Scriptures teach that we should all go and seek to interject ourselves into conflicts like this.
It's easy to err on both sides. On the one side, we can be so afraid of conflict that we spend our lives "being nice" instead of doing good. On the other side, we can stick our noses into places God is not calling us and get all wrapped up with other kingdoms. We need to discern, together, by the Holy Spirit.

Regardless, courage and a willingness to sacrifice are a good thing, not a bad thing.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14445
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

PeterG wrote:We shouldn't necessarily go around making unsolicited proclamations about, say, abortion or white nationalism, but there's a time to be clear about what's right and what's wrong.
I think this is one of those times.
PeterG wrote:We must also acknowledge that for decades conservative Anabaptists (myself included) have demonstrated a pattern of affinity toward right-wing politics. I'm hopeful that we're in the process of extricating ourselves from this mess (and I've seen positive signs, especially since last year's election campaign), but in the meantime we might need to be more proactive about rejecting things like white nationalism. These kinds of ideas are more attractive to some of our people than we'd like to admit; I've seen it among my students.
If Facebook is any indication, I know some conservative Mennonites who are knee deep in that water. Sadly. And of course, many good Christians here in the South have temptations in that direction.

Incidentally, I think it's also worth remembering that Christian racism was involved in setting up memorials like the ones the white nationalists are fighting to preserve. Personally, I would rather see more history rather than less - put up other statues that tell other sides of the story, right next to the existing ones, and tell the story of how these existing statues were put up.

30 minutes down the road from me there is a statue called Silent Sam, commemorating Confederate soldiers. Here is Julian Carr's Speech at the Dedication of Silent Sam:
And how she lived for him, that patient widowed mother of the South; what a man she made of him; how she has kept true in his breast the best traditions of his race; how she has fed him, clothed him, brought him up through poverty to wealth, from weakness to strength, to the high honor of hard work, through the indomitable example that she set! She has made of the sturdy manhood of the South the highest product which a Christian race has yet attained.
The present generation, I am persuaded, scarcely takes note of what the Confederate soldier meant to the welfare of the Anglo Saxon race during the four years immediately succeeding the war, when the facts are, that their courage and steadfastness saved the very life of the Anglo Saxon race in the South – When “the bottom rail was on top” all over the Southern states, and to-day, as a consequence the purest strain of the Anglo Saxon is to be found in the 13 Southern States – Praise God.

I trust I may be pardoned for one allusion, howbeit it is rather personal. One hundred yards from where we stand, less than ninety days perhaps after my return from Appomattox, I horse-whipped a negro when until her skirts hung in shreds, because upon the streets of this quiet village she had publicly insulted and maligned a Southern lady, and then rushed for protection to these University buildings where was stationed a garrison of 100 Federal soldiers. I performed the pleasing duty in the immediate presence of the entire garrison, and for thirty nights afterwards slept with a double-barrel shot gun under my head.
When white extremists fight for these monuments, they are aware of this history. Most of these monuments weren't built after the Civil War, they were built in the Jim Crow era or in the Civil Rights era when white Southerners wanted monuments that clearly said who was in charge.

Image

Ironically, Robert E. Lee warned against this kind of memorial - for precisely the right reasons.
Screen Shot 2017-08-15 at 2.11.44 PM.png
Screen Shot 2017-08-15 at 2.11.44 PM.png (340.97 KiB) Viewed 299 times
My oldest daughter went to a Christian school that taught essentially the same fictional sanitized version of the Civil War that these white extremists are pushing. Maybe divorcing ourselves from that is one thing we should be doing.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by PeterG »

temporal1 wrote:i don't intend to be critical of her;
I'm glad to know that. But, to me, your words have seemed very critical of her and the group that she was associated with. Your words have not matched your intentions.
temporal1 wrote:i've stated before, i'm so glad the internet and social media were not available in prior times. young people do things they later regret, they grow up.

"young people" now often includes those into their 40's .. versus in former times, "adults" would have included 16-18 year olds, with expectations of responsibility to match.

the world is growing political activists who know little about what they're acting for/against.
there's a lot of ego involved.

i do wince at big strong able well-fed people claiming oppression.
Which side in the Charlottesville protests are you referring to?
temporal1 wrote:what more is there to say about him?
At least as much as there is to say about his alleged victims.
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
PeterG
Posts: 894
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:52 pm
Location: Central PA
Affiliation: Conserv. Mennonite

Re: Charlottesville

Post by PeterG »

Bootstrap wrote:
PeterG wrote:We shouldn't necessarily go around making unsolicited proclamations about, say, abortion or white nationalism, but there's a time to be clear about what's right and what's wrong.
I think this is one of those times.
That may well be. The main thing that concerns me is that the tail seems to end up wagging the dog so often. I fear that we're not saying much to the world besides our response to the moral question of the day, and Christianity ends up being all about that response in the world's (and our?) perception. To a large degree this has happened over the past few decades through the church's response to the sexual revolution, and as far as many non-Christians can tell our faith begins and ends with a system of sexual morality. This is really a shame. But of course the answer isn't to become silent on moral issues...
0 x
"It is a weird" —Ken
Post Reply