Charlottesville

General Christian Theology
temporal1
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Of interest, being in the South-
Most of the Christian folks I know are open to denounce racism when discussing these kinds of events, but they usually follow up immediately with "but we shouldn't rewrite history".

Really? Is an expensive hunk of metal synonymous with history? Read a book if you're so interested in preserving history. Keep history where it belongs.

I can't help but think...They could tear down every statue of Jesus and burn every cross on the planet, and it would "erase" NOTHING. Man's symbols preserve no meaning and truly serve no purpose.
from a Christian perspective, i agree about the value of statues and other symbols of government.
however, Jesus did not instruct to destroy others' property, or covet or withhold others' property.
Mark 12:17 / Give to Caesar what is Caesar's ..
http://biblehub.com/mark/12-17.htm

to me, these things belong to Caesar, it's not for Christians to decide it all belongs in books or museums.

this thing about removing vestiges of the Confederate history began as a result of Dylann Roof.
soon after, obama called for removal of ALL Confederate flags .. i don't believe he did anything more formal than personally call for their removal (??) .. the response was significant.

as a result of last Saturday, there are political leaders/activists calling for formal/legal+final removal of all sorts of things, while others are asking, "when will you be satisfied?" .. no response.

"no response" is the correct response.
as Jesus let us know, there is no peace without Him.

no human law, no removing/denying history, no mandated silence, will satisfy.
no book burning will kill the Holy Spirit.

Dylann Roof was not controlled by the Confederate flag.

obama siezed a tragic opportunity to stir a pot. his investment continues. more unrest. more blood spilled. it appears, more bloodshed will be forthcoming.
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

temporal1 wrote:without knowing what the above picture is .. it appears to be 2 sides of 1 coin.
i see nothing Christ-like in locked arms forming a defiant impenetrable human wall against .. ??
Against armed terrorism, perhaps? Against armed militias from somewhere else coming into a local community in a show of force, implying that they are a threat to some of the people who live there?

And it's probably a very penetrable wall. To me, the pastors don't look like they are threatening the armed militia in any way. They are vulnerable.

I'm inclined to leave armed militias up to Caesar. It might be a different story if Caesar refused to protect black citizens against white nationalists. But I admire the courage of these clergy, and I'm not inclined to judge them. And I definitely don't think they are equivalent to the armed militia.

The whole notion of private armed militias roaming our streets in emotionally charged situations worries me.
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ken_sylvania
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by ken_sylvania »

temporal1 wrote:i'm attempting to learn about 2 kingdom CO theology on this forum.
when i read members claim their political neutrality, or non-political, or a-political beliefs, while defining just what they consider permissable for our POTUS to do, say, think, etc., this just doesn't wash, in my mind. "i'm not political / evil politics." - "i'm on this side!" i'm sorry.

it seems more honest to just admit your politics and own it.
we humans delude ourselves in one way or another.
Temp, I absolutely agree with your statement above, but then when you follow up with statements like the following, I get perplexed.
temporal1 wrote: obama siezed a tragic opportunity to stir a pot. his investment continues. more unrest. more blood spilled. it appears, more bloodshed will be forthcoming.
I'm bothered by the amount of Obama-bashing that you engage in. I don't think he is a saint, but neither do I think he is the devil incarnate. Sometimes it feels like you can't let a day go by without bashing either Obama or the "liberals." I don't really like it.
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

A thought on Caesar and a thought on history.

In this event, Caesar is the City of Charlottesville. The white extremists are not Caesar, they are not an elected government, and they were mostly not from Charlottesville. Charlottesville decided to do two things: (1) rename Lee Park to Emancipation Park in order to celebrate the history of the freeing of slaves, (2) move the statue of Robert E. Lee - who was against this kind of monument because he feared it would cause exactly this kind of thing - to another place so that it does not dominate the park. When Caesar decides something like this, I feel a whole lot safer if the rule of law prevails. We don't need outsiders coming in, threatening violence. It's not yet decided, actually, it's still in the courts, and Caesar is still making up his mind.

I agree that denying history is a bad thing. I also agree that monuments can help tell history - and after all, the city of Charlottesville is moving the statue, not destroying it. But when we tell history, let's tell the whole thing. Let's remember what the Confederates said about the foundation of their constitution:
Our new government is founded upon exactly [this] idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
They knew why they were fighting:
The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right.
And these same thoughts are echoed in the dedication speeches for some of these statues. Most of them put up 50 years after the Civil War in the Jim Crow era, when rights blacks and been given after the Civil War were taken away again. The other big wave of memorials to the Civil War came as resistance to the civil rights movement.

Neo-Nazis, the KKK, and various fascist hate groups love Confederate symbolism (and Nazi symbolism). After Dylan Roof, many governments decided that the Confederate flag should not fly over the courthouses where blacks should expect to be treated the same way as whites. They also decided that the parks where people go for picnics should not be dominated by Confederate monuments.

So by all means, let's not erase history. But let's tell the whole story. I actually think it's important for at least some Christians to understand history so that we can have our eyes open - after all, Christians sometimes seem to be a little too close to people we should stay far away from. And by all means, let Caesar decide what to do with it's statues. I hope Caesar maintains the rule of law, protecting people against hate groups.
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MaxPC
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by MaxPC »

temporal1 wrote:from a Christian perspective, i agree about the value of statues and other symbols of government.
however, Jesus did not instruct to destroy others' property, or covet or withhold others' property.

Mark 12:17 / Give to Caesar what is Caesar's ..
http://biblehub.com/mark/12-17.htm
to me, these things belong to Caesar, it's not for Christians to decide it all belongs in books or museums.
....
as a result of last Saturday, there are political leaders/activists calling for formal/legal+final removal of all sorts of things, while others are asking, "when will you be satisfied?" .. no response.

"no response" is the correct response.
as Jesus let us know, there is no peace without Him.

no human law, no removing/denying history, no mandated silence, will satisfy.
no book burning will kill the Holy Spirit.

These are quite valid points. For Christians who lived at the end of the Roman Empire as well as Christians today. The politicians of secular kingdoms will always seek attention and grandstand. It was true then and it's true now.

I think about how many kingdoms, governments, empires and dictatorships have appeared and then vanished in the history of the human race. Yet God is still with us through it all and will continue to be with us. He is still calling us to repent and return to Him and live out our discipleship in obedience to Him.
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KingdomBuilder
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by KingdomBuilder »

Caesar decided to remove the statues. It's our job to respect that, is it not?

It's awfully easy for me to respect removing statues of heinous folks... Why are so many Christians struggling with respecting authorities when it comes to their decision to remove some old hunks of metal??
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MaxPC
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by MaxPC »

KingdomBuilder wrote:Caesar decided to remove the statues. It's our job to respect that, is it not?

It's awfully easy for me to respect removing statues of heinous folks... Why are so many Christians struggling with respecting authorities when it comes to their decision to remove some old hunks of metal??
As Temporal1 said: "no response is the correct response". I would add: pray for your family and friends to re-focus themselves on Christ and also for the conversion of hearts as Jesus instructed us. We can't change how others are reacting; they will need to examine their own attitudes. However we can set a different example, with a balanced life focused on Christ.

There is a great deal of anxiety afloat in society today. I'm hearing from several respected persons that they believe it's satan causing trouble with the disrespect for life (abortion and killing of the elderly as well as street violence); the attacks on and breakdown of, traditional families, etc. I can agree with this assessment. Satan is the purveyor of chaos, anger and sin.

Then there are those who have so vested their own identity in the secular kingdom of politics that they put mortal men and women on pedestals in idolatry just because they voted for them - regardless of whether it's liberal, conservative, or custard in the middle. When their "team" or "party" loses an election, they have a hyper-emotional reaction to the event. They take to social media and the streets to shout their anger and dismay.

Much prayer is needed. Increased focus on Christ in our own lives too. Shutting the door on the din and kneeling in prayer while seeking to be a faithful disciple to Christ is our best hope.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

MaxPC wrote:Then there are those who have so vested their own identity in the secular kingdom of politics that they put mortal men and women on pedestals in idolatry just because they voted for them - regardless of whether it's liberal, conservative, or custard in the middle. When their "team" or "party" loses an election, they have a hyper-emotional reaction to the event. They take to social media and the streets to shout their anger and dismay.
Armed militias and hate groups roam through the streets of a city, outsiders make obvious threats of violence against the people who live there, and someone kills a woman with a car and injures 19 other people.

That's not about who you voted for in the election. Wrong issue.
MaxPC wrote:Much prayer is needed. Increased focus on Christ in our own lives too. Shutting the door on the din and kneeling in prayer while seeking to be a faithful disciple to Christ is our best hope.
+1 on the need for much prayer and focus on Christ in our lives.

Are there things we should do, too? Is it helpful for us to try to understand the things that are going on here? Where I live, a mob tore down a statue in front of the town hall. This is on everyone's mind.

How can we be in the world but not of it in this situation?
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temporal1
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by temporal1 »

ken_sylvania wrote:
temporal1 wrote:i'm attempting to learn about 2 kingdom CO theology on this forum.
when i read members claim their political neutrality, or non-political, or a-political beliefs, while defining just what they consider permissable for our POTUS to do, say, think, etc., this just doesn't wash, in my mind. "i'm not political / evil politics." - "i'm on this side!" i'm sorry.

it seems more honest to just admit your politics and own it.
we humans delude ourselves in one way or another.
Temp, I absolutely agree with your statement above, but then when you follow up with statements like the following, I get perplexed.
temporal1 wrote: obama siezed a tragic opportunity to stir a pot. his investment continues. more unrest. more blood spilled. it appears, more bloodshed will be forthcoming.
I'm bothered by the amount of Obama-bashing that you engage in. I don't think he is a saint, but neither do I think he is the devil incarnate.

Sometimes it feels like you can't let a day go by without bashing either Obama or the "liberals." I don't really like it.
really sorry to read this from you, as i highly value your thoughts and opinions on this forum.

regarding your last statement, i will pray for you to find some peace on this. :)

clearly, you must be highly sensitive to the topic of obama, or, possibly, just a personal dislike of me, in particular. i have no way of knowing. since at least the first of this year, i no longer post daily, nor do i post a lot on any given day. i try not to. i try to stay out of the political topics. last Saturday was disturbing, it's not going to die a quick death.

obama exploited the Dylann Roof tragedy to build this, his other pet community DIS-organizers are expanding on it. these political (tramps) have no interest in a CO response.

i do not appreciate generalized Trump bashing on this forum, there is so much in the world, does it really have to find its way here? .. in my view, Trump is POTUS because obama and his buddies so insulted so much of the citizenry for so long, what could be expected? obama made no authentic attempt at diplomacy; occasional lip service to confuse, nothing of substance.

what a loss.
obama was in a key position to be a stand-out leader. once elected, i was hopeful for him.
people around me were encouraged! hope was on the horizon.

he chose division, these are the sad fruits of his choices. who does not feel angry "over something" after his 8 years? he put things in place that would ensure his legacy of division would carry on for time to come.

i have no plans to post less, or more. :-|

i don't like bothering you in any way. i would be pleased if you would put me on your ignore list. :)
i really do not want to offend. i do enjoy general discussion. or, i would leave to relieve you, without being bothered by it. if i were a better person, i would do this, without hesitation.

i have tried leaving altogether. have not been able to abide by it.
some have known my struggle with it.
i can't make that promise.
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Most or all of this drama, humiliation, wasted taxpayer money could be spared -
with even modest attempt at presenting balanced facts from the start.


”We’re all just walking each other home.”
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Re: Charlottesville

Post by Bootstrap »

Two requests:

1. Could we please not mention Obama, Trump, or other political leaders in this thread? If you need to do that, please start another thread.

2. Could we please avoid accusing other participants of anything in this thread? I would like this to be a safe place to consider our own responses, and that's usually hard with accusations flying around.
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