Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

General Christian Theology
haithabu
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

lesterb wrote: My opinion is that the OT saints couldn't go to heaven until the sacrifice of Christ paid the ransom for their sins. The OT sacrifices could not take away sin, only the blood of Christ could do that. So paradise was in Hades, along with hell, and a great gulf was between the two. Jesus went there, after He died, to proclaim the good news that the price had been paid, their salvation was complete, and they could now follow him to meet the father.

Like Haithabu, I am under the impression that Jesus also preached to the "sinners" who were in the other part of Hades. I'm not convinced on the second chance part of his theory, that the sinners could change their mind at that point. I think hell would have been immediately empty were that the case. The Rich Man, of the rich man and Lazurus account, would have immediately sought forgiveness and left.

I think it was more justification for their punishment that Jesus preached to them. But even if Haithabu is right, that leaves no hope for people today to expect a second chance.
I agree that there are no grounds in the text to extend the I Peter passages to cover people who die outside of Christ in the present day. But I don't exclude it either because in principle I don't see any reason why God would distinguish between someone from Old Testament times and someone from today who never heard the gospel. And my view is that if God saw fit in His word to leave the door of grace open a crack, it's not for me to correct His oversight and push it all the way shut.

I know that Hebrews 9:27 is used as a proof text to do just that, but in my opinion (for whatever it is worth) people are hanging more weight on that verse than it will carry. You can't use it as some do to state definitively that someone who dies while unsaved goes straight to hell, do not pass go, because that is contrary to Daniel 12:2 which suggests that both reward and final punishment for the dead are deferred until after the resurrection. So there is an intermission between death and the last judgment in which some sort of turning could conceivably happen if they are conscious and if God's grace would continue to operate in someone in that state.

The Scripture's description of the mechanism of salvation in both Old and New Testament is very simple: "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
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Valerie
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Valerie »

Paul wrote:
Valerie wrote:Paul, I agree after this life we don't get second chances-BUT what is meant then by "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water"

The explanation that you were given and shared makes it sound like this was referring to Him before His incarnation, preaching-

but it says "For this reason, the gospel was preached also to those wo are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit-

Both of those passages seem to convey when Christ descended to the dead & I always heard, that was after He was crucified- during the time period before He rose-

What you just shard is similar to what our present Pastor shared- that this 'descension' and preaching took place during the period of the Old Covenant when He would manifest Himself as you convey- that was a new explanation to me- also Pastor Begg considred the 'spirits' to be angels which I hadn't heard that before either-

I consider that as soon as Christ yielded up His Spirit, on the Cross- that one of the astounding things that happened according to Matthew 27:52,53- that"and the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many"
Not sure if this ties in at all with this- anyway- just had been perplexed by the more recent explanation- and wondered if it was ever preached elsewhere- I don't recall our former pastor of 20 years speaking about it- probably being unsure.
I think you are mixing up two seperate Scriptures, I think the Scripture in 1 Peter 4 is in a completely different context:

1 Peter 4:3-6 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Dead in this context means dead in sin, spiritually dead. The Gospel is preached to those that are spiritually dead, which is a judgment to all flesh, so that they might live according to God in the spirit. Just curious, is your pastor Alistair Begg? I really enjoyed watching some of his sermons, if it's him, you must be very blessed to have him as your pastor!
In my reading, since Apostle Peter mentioned 'the dead' in chapter 4- and the spirits in Chapter 3:'by whom He went and preached to the spirits in prison'- they seem to be tied together-
Once I bought my Orthodox Study Bible- the footnote for vs 1 Peter 4:6 says "The dead are most likely those preached "in prison" in Hades (3:19. Although that footnote didn't claim to know for sure- it connects the two- also consider Ephesians 4:8, 9: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

So to me it is all tying in together that He went & preached in Hades, or the lower parts of the earth- and I suppose what Haithabu shared is what I align to as well- and yes I agree with all that this is not implying there are second chances under the New Covenant- after death- but there is that reference to Noah's time in all this too- so I wouldn't rule out since those who died in Noah's time did not die under the New Covenant possibility of Christ's atonement as 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: that perhaps this is why Jesus went to 'preach' to the spirits in prison (hades)
Also, I don't know- the righteous- were they not already with God? If not, when Moses & Elijah met with Jesus, Peter, James & John on the Mount of Transfiguration- they were not in Hades, and this was before the Crucifixion-


By the way Paul, yes we are attending Pastor Begg's Church presently- we needed to have 'peace' for awhile in a Church where we were not feeling like we had to sift through so much new teachings that we've been exposed to over the last 10 years- we have benefited from his teachings for a long time & since it is not too far (distance) it's a great place for us presently. I really didn't long to be in such a large congregation though- but there are ways to 'get connected' but when a congregation is that large, it is difficult to say "he is 'my' pastor- because the flock is so large- it's like the multitudes Jesus would preach to at times- you know? I assume he is approachable (I've heard) if need be-
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Bootstrap
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:I agree that there are no grounds in the text to extend the I Peter passages to cover people who die outside of Christ in the present day. But I don't exclude it either because in principle I don't see any reason why God would distinguish between someone from Old Testament times and someone from today who never heard the gospel. And my view is that if God saw fit in His word to leave the door of grace open a crack, it's not for me to correct His oversight and push it all the way shut.
I agree.

There's a lot that the New Testament doesn't tell us, and those are things we don't know with any certainty. So let's not get all dogmatic about those things. And praying for mercy and grace is always a good thing.
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Paul
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

haithabu wrote:
lesterb wrote: My opinion is that the OT saints couldn't go to heaven until the sacrifice of Christ paid the ransom for their sins. The OT sacrifices could not take away sin, only the blood of Christ could do that. So paradise was in Hades, along with hell, and a great gulf was between the two. Jesus went there, after He died, to proclaim the good news that the price had been paid, their salvation was complete, and they could now follow him to meet the father.

Like Haithabu, I am under the impression that Jesus also preached to the "sinners" who were in the other part of Hades. I'm not convinced on the second chance part of his theory, that the sinners could change their mind at that point. I think hell would have been immediately empty were that the case. The Rich Man, of the rich man and Lazurus account, would have immediately sought forgiveness and left.

I think it was more justification for their punishment that Jesus preached to them. But even if Haithabu is right, that leaves no hope for people today to expect a second chance.
I agree that there are no grounds in the text to extend the I Peter passages to cover people who die outside of Christ in the present day. But I don't exclude it either because in principle I don't see any reason why God would distinguish between someone from Old Testament times and someone from today who never heard the gospel. And my view is that if God saw fit in His word to leave the door of grace open a crack, it's not for me to correct His oversight and push it all the way shut.

I know that Hebrews 9:27 is used as a proof text to do just that, but in my opinion (for whatever it is worth) people are hanging more weight on that verse than it will carry. You can't use it as some do to state definitively that someone who dies while unsaved goes straight to hell, do not pass go, because that is contrary to Daniel 12:2 which suggests that both reward and final punishment for the dead are deferred until after the resurrection. So there is an intermission between death and the last judgment in which some sort of turning could conceivably happen if they are conscious and if God's grace would continue to operate in someone in that state.

The Scripture's description of the mechanism of salvation in both Old and New Testament is very simple: "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
So what about parable of the rich man and Lazarus? To me that seems to be a very clear example that life after death - awaiting the ressurection and final judgment - leaves no second chances for conversion. Or how clear does it need to be defined before you can accept it as truth?
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haithabu
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

Bootstrap wrote:
haithabu wrote:I agree that there are no grounds in the text to extend the I Peter passages to cover people who die outside of Christ in the present day. But I don't exclude it either because in principle I don't see any reason why God would distinguish between someone from Old Testament times and someone from today who never heard the gospel. And my view is that if God saw fit in His word to leave the door of grace open a crack, it's not for me to correct His oversight and push it all the way shut.
I agree.

There's a lot that the New Testament doesn't tell us, and those are things we don't know with any certainty. So let's not get all dogmatic about those things. And praying for mercy and grace is always a good thing.
That's how it seems to me. In fact there are times when I hear that someone has died in bad circumstances (outside the faith, committing murder, suicide) that I feel moved to pray for their soul. Perhaps that sort of prayer is wasted, but I leave that for God to decide. If the Spirit seems to be leading me to do so, I'd rather risk a wasted prayer than risk not praying for someone who might be helped by it.
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haithabu
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

Paul wrote: So what about parable of the rich man and Lazarus? To me that seems to be a very clear example that life after death - awaiting the ressurection and final judgment - leaves no second chances for conversion. Or how clear does it need to be defined before you can accept it as truth?
There is no Saviour in that parable, is there? Just saints already in bliss and the damned already in torment. "No one" - not even Abraham - can cross the divide. But I think there's reason to believe that Jesus is describing the default condition of the dead before the entry of God's grace by way of his atonement. He had not yet died and overcome the power of sin and of death.
I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the book or to look into it; and one of the elders said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to open the book and its seven seals.”

.....And they sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Revelation 5:2-5,9
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MaxPC
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by MaxPC »

haithabu wrote:In fact there are times when I hear that someone has died in bad circumstances (outside the faith, committing murder, suicide) that I feel moved to pray for their soul. Perhaps that sort of prayer is wasted, but I leave that for God to decide. If the Spirit seems to be leading me to do so, I'd rather risk a wasted prayer than risk not praying for someone who might be helped by it.
:up: :up: Spot on!
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by gcdonner »

I wonder if too much emphasis is being put on the translation "preached"? "the gospel was preached" is all one word in the Greek, which can simply mean that good news was announced. How does that change our perspective of the passage?
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by RZehr »

gcdonner wrote:I wonder if too much emphasis is being put on the translation "preached"? "the gospel was preached" is all one word in the Greek, which can simply mean that good news was announced. How does that change our perspective of the passage?
I wondered that as well.
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Paul
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

haithabu wrote: There is no Saviour in that parable, is there? Just saints already in bliss and the damned already in torment. "No one" - not even Abraham - can cross the divide. But I think there's reason to believe that Jesus is describing the default condition of the dead before the entry of God's grace by way of his atonement. He had not yet died and overcome the power of sin and of death.
Somewhere else in Revelation the reference is made to Jesus being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I think that's the key to understanding how the OT saints were saved, Enoch for instance could walk with God, and walk right into heaven. Now how could he possibly avoid death and enter into the presence of God, since Christ had not yet conquered death or died for his sins? But the atonement of Christ, as it applies to us, so it applied to the saints in the OT already, because He is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'.

And the simple, straight-forward reading of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not suggest any room for second chances of salvation after death. The spiritual truth that Christ conveyed, is that at death our souls will be required of us, and it is presented as a general truth, regardless of covenant or time.

Luke 12:20-21 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
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