Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

General Christian Theology
Valerie
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Valerie »

lesterb wrote:https://lbauman.ca/cornerstone-melodies/
About halfway down the page.
Thank you lesterb, that is your recording? I find it fascinating that a song was written about this- there really is a lot said in this one song- (plus I get to listen to the other songs!) some more thoughts on the subject in the song- and even though I'm not certain what exactly it is teaching- the fact that someone even wrote this song is pretty inspiring. Mennonite songs are so completely different that all we've heard our whole lives it is very enjoyable to hear these.
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ohio jones
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by ohio jones »

Valerie wrote:Mennonite songs are so completely different that all we've heard our whole lives it is very enjoyable to hear these.
:) I wouldn't call that a Mennonite song, though the previously cited examples may have been sung by Mennonites. It was written by Dwayne Friend, a guitar player in the country and gospel music world of the 60s and 70s. Here's an recording from that era:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae4s5XNBe1o
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Valerie
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Valerie »

ohio jones wrote:
Valerie wrote:Mennonite songs are so completely different that all we've heard our whole lives it is very enjoyable to hear these.
:) I wouldn't call that a Mennonite song, though the previously cited examples may have been sung by Mennonites. It was written by Dwayne Friend, a guitar player in the country and gospel music world of the 60s and 70s. Here's an recording from that era:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae4s5XNBe1o
Admittedly I was not a fan of country gospel music- maybe in my older age-(not implying that type of music is for older folks, but my tastes are changing) I notice it is growing on me- and the kind of Christian music I used to be into is losing it's appeal- however, I have to admit I like the Mennonite versions better- so here are the lyrics:

The Little Boy from the Carpenter Shop

He was [C]born in a stable, His [Am]mother a virgin;
[F]raised in a carpenter [C]shop.
His [C]people were slaves, His [Am]parents were poor;
His [F]friends were a lowly [G7]lot.
His [F]chances in life, [G7]seemed so slim; why,
He's [F]expected to be a [G7]slave.

But the [C]people in darkness [F]saw light in Him;
as [C]hope for [G7]freedom He [C]gave.
[C]All of the power of [Am]heaven and earth;[F]
God has invested in[C]Him.
[C]He's to die on the cross, [Am]descend into hell;
meet the [F]devil, take the keys from [G7]him.

He [F]yielded His life to the [G7]death on the cross;
cried it's [F]finished and then He [G7]died.
In the [C]regions of hell, the [F]devil celebrated;
we've [C]destroyed the [G7]King, he [C]cried.


In the [C]midst of the celebration, [Am]footsteps were heard;
walk-[F]ing the corridors of [C]hell.
Then the [C]shouting stopped, as a [Am]voice rang out;
a [F]voice as clear as a [G7]bell.
[F]Satan then trembled as he [G7]recognized Him;
who [F]came to deliver His [G7]own.

Oh, [C]shut and lock the [F]gates he cried;
don't [C]let Him [G7]ascend to His [C]Throne.
Then the [C]gates swung shut in the [Am]face of our LORD;
to [F]prove salvation [C]untrue.
But, He [C]shook hell's gates, cried [Am]lift up your heads;
the [F]King is coming [G7]through.

Then [F]out of the devil's [G7]prison house
came a proc-[F]ession led by our [G7]King.
Crying [C]out oh grave, where [F]is thy victory;
and [C]death where [G7]is thy [C]sting?
[C]Who is the [F]King of Glory?
The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY; that is [C]He.
[C]Who is the [F]King of Glory?
He's the master of the host of heaven [C]supreme.

[C]Who is the [F]King of Glory?
He's the one that not even death could [C]stop!
[C]Who [G7]is the King of Glory?
The Little Boy from the Carpenter [C]Shop[~F~C]
[C]The Little [G7]Boy from the Carpenter [F]Shop![~~C]


Well I can see the theology/interpretation of Scriptures that led to this song- I really like the song! It conveys alot! Thanks lesterb & OJ- for sharing this.
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RZehr
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by RZehr »

I too really like this song.
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Paul
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

Valerie wrote:Paul, I agree after this life we don't get second chances-BUT what is meant then by "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is eight souls, were saved through water"

The explanation that you were given and shared makes it sound like this was referring to Him before His incarnation, preaching-

but it says "For this reason, the gospel was preached also to those wo are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit-

Both of those passages seem to convey when Christ descended to the dead & I always heard, that was after He was crucified- during the time period before He rose-

What you just shard is similar to what our present Pastor shared- that this 'descension' and preaching took place during the period of the Old Covenant when He would manifest Himself as you convey- that was a new explanation to me- also Pastor Begg considred the 'spirits' to be angels which I hadn't heard that before either-

I consider that as soon as Christ yielded up His Spirit, on the Cross- that one of the astounding things that happened according to Matthew 27:52,53- that"and the graves were opened: and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many"
Not sure if this ties in at all with this- anyway- just had been perplexed by the more recent explanation- and wondered if it was ever preached elsewhere- I don't recall our former pastor of 20 years speaking about it- probably being unsure.
I think you are mixing up two seperate Scriptures, I think the Scripture in 1 Peter 4 is in a completely different context:

1 Peter 4:3-6 For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries: Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Dead in this context means dead in sin, spiritually dead. The Gospel is preached to those that are spiritually dead, which is a judgment to all flesh, so that they might live according to God in the spirit. Just curious, is your pastor Alistair Begg? I really enjoyed watching some of his sermons, if it's him, you must be very blessed to have him as your pastor!
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MattY
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by MattY »

I think there is an easy natural reading of 1 Peter 4:6 that makes a lot more sense. It says the gospel was preached to those who are dead. If I tell you that Menno Simons preached the gospel to those who are dead, are you going to think that means Menno Simons went to Hades and preached to dead people? Of course not. The gospel was preached to people while they were still living, but who are now dead. This might be referring to Christians who died, as an encouragement that this was actually what the gospel was for (from a human point of view, they are dead, but in fact, they have eternal life).

As for 1 Peter 3:19-21, my interpretation of that passage is similar. But first, whatever it means, it cannot mean that there was a second chance given to anyone after death. There is no salvation for anyone after death; the state of the soul at death (saved or un-saved) is the same as it will be at the judgment. I also have an issue with the idea that Christ went to Hades to preach to Old Testament saints and bring them out of Hades to a full or better experience of heaven. That would mean that "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" was a defective place that the thief on the cross (and Lazarus, the poor man) had to be delivered from with more preaching. I don't get that impression from those passages, and using this one unclear passage in 1 Peter to suggest that is shaky, IMO. Also: the passage says he preached to those who were "disobedient". That is hardly likely to refer to Old Testament saints.

So what does it mean? Here I'll bring in a couple other verses first, also written by Peter.

1 Peter 1:10-11 -
Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories.


2 Peter 2:5 -
if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
So these verses call Noah a preacher of righteousness, and say that the Spirit of Christ was in the Old Testament prophets. In light of that, the proper interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19-21 is that Christ was in the spirit (not in the flesh) preaching through Noah, the preacher of righteousness.

Back to 1 Peter 4:6 - If Peter was referring to Old Testaments saints (rather than Christians who had died) here, some people might get hung up on the term "gospel" and think it must mean a New Testament message. But I think it could refer to the expectation of the coming of the Messiah, which was the "good news" of the Old Testament, or perhaps simply to a message of righteousness like the prophets preached.
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

It appears that I'm an outlier here and indeed among most evangelicals, but I do think that the "second chance" interpretation at least for sinners in the time of Noah is the most natural understanding of the two passages in Peter. This is consistent with Jesus's words in Matthew 11:21-24 and elsewhere. How could the day of judgment be "easier" for Sodom than for Capernaum unless that judgment allows for something other than summary damnation?
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Bootstrap »

buckeyematt2 wrote:IAs for 1 Peter 3:19-21, my interpretation of that passage is similar. But first, whatever it means, it cannot mean that there was a second chance given to anyone after death. There is no salvation for anyone after death; the state of the soul at death (saved or un-saved) is the same as it will be at the judgment.
I would like to have extremely clear biblical teaching before making an absolute statement like that. After all, this is Scripture, and God can say whatever he wants to. But I don't think this passage gives us clear, unambiguous statements either way.
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by lesterb »

buckeyematt2 wrote:As for 1 Peter 3:19-21, my interpretation of that passage is similar. But first, whatever it means, it cannot mean that there was a second chance given to anyone after death. There is no salvation for anyone after death; the state of the soul at death (saved or un-saved) is the same as it will be at the judgment. I also have an issue with the idea that Christ went to Hades to preach to Old Testament saints and bring them out of Hades to a full or better experience of heaven. That would mean that "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" was a defective place that the thief on the cross (and Lazarus, the poor man) had to be delivered from with more preaching. I don't get that impression from those passages, and using this one unclear passage in 1 Peter to suggest that is shaky, IMO. Also: the passage says he preached to those who were "disobedient". That is hardly likely to refer to Old Testament saints.
My opinion is that the OT saints couldn't go to heaven until the sacrifice of Christ paid the ransom for their sins. The OT sacrifices could not take away sin, only the blood of Christ could do that. So paradise was in Hades, along with hell, and a great gulf was between the two. Jesus went there, after He died, to proclaim the good news that the price had been paid, their salvation was complete, and they could now follow him to meet the father.

Like Haithabu, I am under the impression that Jesus also preached to the "sinners" who were in the other part of Hades. I'm not convinced on the second chance part of his theory, that the sinners could change their mind at that point. I think hell would have been immediately empty were that the case. The Rich Man, of the rich man and Lazurus account, would have immediately sought forgiveness and left.

I think it was more justification for their punishment that Jesus preached to them. But even if Haithabu is right, that leaves no hope for people today to expect a second chance.
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

buckeyematt2 wrote:I think there is an easy natural reading of 1 Peter 4:6 that makes a lot more sense. It says the gospel was preached to those who are dead. If I tell you that Menno Simons preached the gospel to those who are dead, are you going to think that means Menno Simons went to Hades and preached to dead people? Of course not. The gospel was preached to people while they were still living, but who are now dead. This might be referring to Christians who died, as an encouragement that this was actually what the gospel was for (from a human point of view, they are dead, but in fact, they have eternal life).
Yep that makes sense.. I really enjoy good Bible exposition :)
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