Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

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haithabu
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

Paul,

Your theory that OT saints enjoyed retroactive application of Christ's sacrifice runs up against Hebrews 11:39,40. They were commended for their faith, but they (specifically including Enoch) did not receive what was promised so that they would not be made perfect apart from us. Ie, they had to wait for Jesus to die.

That's my plain and simple reading of it anyway. :)
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haithabu
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by haithabu »

If you read all of Hebrews 11 you'll notice that even Abraham, in whose bosom Lazarus is resting, is included in the list of OT saints who had to wait. So Hades in the parable is a waiting room; no one there is at their final destination.
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Paul
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

I don't really understand your point, I wasn't arguing that both believers or unbelievers are at their final destination when they die. There will be a ressurection and final judgment, either to eternal life in the new heavens and earth or eternal destruction in the lake of fire, which will be our final destination.
But even in the meantime there is comfort already for the believer, as Lazarus received in the bosom of Abraham, and there is torment for the unbeliever as the rich man experienced. And nowhere does the Bible indicate that this experience after life would be different for OT saints or unbelievers than for those that die after Christ's coming, or does it indicate that there is any chance to avoid or change the outcome of that final judgment.

And it would not make any sense if there were, after all salvation is by faith according to Hebrews 11:

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Faith is the means God has designed for salvation, not sight, and after death we would have sight.
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by gcdonner »

Paul wrote:
I think that's the key to understanding how the OT saints were saved, Enoch for instance could walk with God, and walk right into heaven. Now how could he possibly avoid death and enter into the presence of God, since Christ had not yet conquered death or died for his sins? But the atonement of Christ, as it applies to us, so it applied to the saints in the OT already, because He is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'.
Where does it say that Enoch walked into heaven or that he even arrived there?
Here is what scripture actually says,
Gen_5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Where did he take him? We don't know for a fact beyond that God took him...
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Valerie
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Paul wrote:
I think that's the key to understanding how the OT saints were saved, Enoch for instance could walk with God, and walk right into heaven. Now how could he possibly avoid death and enter into the presence of God, since Christ had not yet conquered death or died for his sins? But the atonement of Christ, as it applies to us, so it applied to the saints in the OT already, because He is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'.
Where does it say that Enoch walked into heaven or that he even arrived there?
Here is what scripture actually says,
Gen_5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Where did he take him? We don't know for a fact beyond that God took him...
Wouldn't Enoch be where Elijah was taken?
Hebrews 11:
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.[/u] 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

If this says that Enoch was translated that he should not see death- it seems like this would imply a translation like Elijah's but without the fiery chariot 'details'- it doesn't say how but that he didn't see death and was translated. Not sure 'how' is that important- usually the angels transport people to heaven-
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Paul
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Paul »

This is an interesting article on the topic aswell: https://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testam ... evers.html

I think Elijah and Enoch both went to the same place as Abraham, David and all the other saints in the OT, to heaven.
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote: Wouldn't Enoch be where Elijah was taken?
Hebrews 11:
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.[/u] 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

If this says that Enoch was translated that he should not see death- it seems like this would imply a translation like Elijah's but without the fiery chariot 'details'- it doesn't say how but that he didn't see death and was translated. Not sure 'how' is that important- usually the angels transport people to heaven-
So where did Elijah go? Scripture indicates that it was not to heaven in the fiery chariot, but to another place, perhaps similar to Philips translation in the NT after immersing the Ethiopian eunuch.
Consider the following passages:
2Ki_2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
13 years intervening...
2Ch_21:12  And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah...
There are lots of conjectures, but no simple answer to this statement.
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Valerie
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by Valerie »

gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote: Wouldn't Enoch be where Elijah was taken?
Hebrews 11:
By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.[/u] 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith."

If this says that Enoch was translated that he should not see death- it seems like this would imply a translation like Elijah's but without the fiery chariot 'details'- it doesn't say how but that he didn't see death and was translated. Not sure 'how' is that important- usually the angels transport people to heaven-
So where did Elijah go? Scripture indicates that it was not to heaven in the fiery chariot, but to another place, perhaps similar to Philips translation in the NT after immersing the Ethiopian eunuch.
Consider the following passages:
2Ki_2:11  And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
13 years intervening...
2Ch_21:12  And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah...
There are lots of conjectures, but no simple answer to this statement.
The Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes the Book of Enoch in their canons. This text describes Enoch's ascent into heaven. This book is not accepted in the Eastern Orthodox Canon but is considered as an apocryphal text. According to prophecies of the holy Fathers, God will send Elijah and Enoch before coming of the Antichrist to bear witness for Christ on the earth and to strengthen the faithful.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that since the Scripture states that Enoch was translated 'that he should not see death', and that Elijah was taken up 'into heaven' - if Enoch didn't ever die- Enoch would have gone to heaven as well- where else would one go, that was like Elijah- who was translated that he should not see death?- Anyway- this particular part, I'm not sure how it fits in with wo Christ preached to as the spirits in hades, but I tend to agree with haithabu's understanding- I can't imagine why Jesus descended and preached the gospel into hades- why is the gospel preached to begin with, if not for an 'opportunity'?
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gcdonner
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by gcdonner »

Valerie wrote:
gcdonner wrote:
Valerie wrote: Wouldn't Enoch be where Elijah was taken?

The Ethiopian Orthodox Church includes the Book of Enoch in their canons. This text describes Enoch's ascent into heaven. This book is not accepted in the Eastern Orthodox Canon but is considered as an apocryphal text. According to prophecies of the holy Fathers, God will send Elijah and Enoch before coming of the Antichrist to bear witness for Christ on the earth and to strengthen the faithful.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that since the Scripture states that Enoch was translated 'that he should not see death', and that Elijah was taken up 'into heaven' - if Enoch didn't ever die- Enoch would have gone to heaven as well- where else would one go, that was like Elijah- who was translated that he should not see death?- Anyway- this particular part, I'm not sure how it fits in with wo Christ preached to as the spirits in hades, but I tend to agree with haithabu's understanding- I can't imagine why Jesus descended and preached the gospel into hades- why is the gospel preached to begin with, if not for an 'opportunity'?
We need to remember that "taken up into heaven" is a relative phrase, meaning caught up into the sky, not necessarily to the abode of God (where does God abide anyway?) It may well be that both Enoch and Elijah went directly to "Abraham's bosom" and descriptive phrase of the place of the dead, but where they seem to be "alive" during the parable of Jesus.
The point is moot however, and as long as we insist on using the term "preach" rather than the more accurate term "announce" we tend to conjure up visions of Jesus standing behind a pulpit in Hades and preaching fire and brimstone to an unrepentant lot. The reality is that Jesus announced to the believing dead that they were about to be released, as they surely were when he himself came forth from the grave/Hades/hell. Jesus was the firstfruits of the resurrection and signaled that the general resurrection had begun.
Our modern Gentile minds conjure up all kinds of images that are not implied or intended by scripture.
Paul's statement to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, indicates that now the resurrection is an ongoing reality and the writer to the Hebrew Christians tells us that it is appointed unto men once to die and after that the judgment, indicating the time frame of immediacy for our meeting face to face with YHWH upon our physical death.

I have a copy of the Book of Enoch and it certainly has many fanciful tales in it, which are traditions of men and elaborate additions to Divine revelation, but not inspired. I hesitate to establish doctrine on it, though we have to admit that Jude quoted from it in his brief epistle, as well as several other pieces from the Pseudepigrapha.
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MattY
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Re: Christ Preached to the spirits in hades-

Post by MattY »

Paul wrote:
haithabu wrote: There is no Saviour in that parable, is there? Just saints already in bliss and the damned already in torment. "No one" - not even Abraham - can cross the divide. But I think there's reason to believe that Jesus is describing the default condition of the dead before the entry of God's grace by way of his atonement. He had not yet died and overcome the power of sin and of death.
Somewhere else in Revelation the reference is made to Jesus being the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I think that's the key to understanding how the OT saints were saved, Enoch for instance could walk with God, and walk right into heaven. Now how could he possibly avoid death and enter into the presence of God, since Christ had not yet conquered death or died for his sins? But the atonement of Christ, as it applies to us, so it applied to the saints in the OT already, because He is 'the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world'.

And the simple, straight-forward reading of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus does not suggest any room for second chances of salvation after death. The spiritual truth that Christ conveyed, is that at death our souls will be required of us, and it is presented as a general truth, regardless of covenant or time.

Luke 12:20-21 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided? So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.
Agreed.

Also take the judgment passages which speak of judgment being based on what is done in this life on earth - Matt. 7:21-23, Matt. 25, Romans 2:5-8, Revelation 20:12-13, John 5:29, etc.

Also see John 8:21-24: "So he said to them again, “I am going away, and you will seek me, and you will die in your sin. Where I am going, you cannot come...I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.” For those who die in their sin, their destiny is set. They cannot come. This makes evangelism very important!
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