Culture or Faith?

General Christian Theology
Valerie
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Valerie »

haithabu wrote:The Christian faith faithfully lived out over generations will influence the surrounding culture - if long enough, to the point where its host culture may consider itself to be "Christian". This was once the story of Europe. I don't think it is a bad thing in itself. I believe that something like this is a natural part of the Kingdom's leavening process which Jesus described.

The danger is that the culture may supersede the faith to the point where people don't think of Christianity as something which is a matter of personal belief or commitment.

Elsewhere, believers in a hostile or indifferent social setting may develop a subculture of their own. I don't thing this is a bad thing either because you need a counterculture to stand against the false values of the world. In Muslim countries where the religion is the culture, such a subculture is a positive requirement for sustainable Christian communities. This was the experience of the Dutch Mennonite missionaries in Indonesia.

The danger if it goes too far is that Christians will withdraw into a sort of tribalism and lose access for outreach into the surrounding society. There has to remain some cultural common ground between them and nonbelievers.
Good thoughts Haitabu-
Couple things come to mind- makes me think of the Amish community in my own county who are very isolated- yet- now- the English are coming to them (for their produce auction) and so they are forced to 'mix' somewhat - many come from around the world these days to see how the Amish live- I see some people write here & there "they are the only 'true' Christians left' " type of comments- not sure what exactly they are basing that on- I have pondered this-
Some of their thoughts pertain to that they do not 'push' their religion on others, they live it.

Also considering Apostle Paul here:
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

So where does Christianity draw the 'lines' pertaining to the above teaching of Apostle Paul? I know for example, AMish have taken the extreme on this- coming out from among them and being separate-

Would love to read the article- it makes me mindful of Denny Kenaston's desire to 'stir up the gifts' within some of the plain circles to use their talents for God and not be known for their great craftsmanship and cooking-

Truly Christ's intention was to take the Gospel and affect the world with it that the world would be saved- unfortunately the world seems to have infiltrated the Church quite a bit to where there's not a very real distinction in these days we live- as Sudsy points out, there are many many volunteers and activists in humanitarian efforts, that know not Christ but just want to help human beings- (yet we consider- we are all made in the image of God).
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YorkandAdams
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by YorkandAdams »

There are some of us who happen to like the cultural aspect of conservative anabaptism almost as much as we "like" the faith aspect (I don't have a better word then "like" at the moment). We see the womens dresses, coverings, exc.. and realize that there is beauty to the application. Not sure how much I would be able to distinguish the male equivelant, but in some areas I am sure you can. Now the reason it is done is because of our faith (or should be anyway). If the applications that are done end up forming a culture, then where should the line be drawn. At what point do you classify culture. Could we say that men wearing only long pants is a cultural?
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Bootstrap »

lesterb wrote:St strong beliefs always affect our lifestyle and Lifestyles eventually develop a culture. So it's inevitable that Christians will have culture. The important thing is to remember where that culture comes from and not to let it supercede the Bible.
Yes, I think that's exactly right.

If you have wine, you need wineskins to hold it.

You might have different wineskins in one culture than you would in another. Disciples in the Congo may choose different forms of worship and dress than disciples in Germany or the Ukraine or the United States, but all Christians will worship and wear clothes. There is nothing particularly holy about the German culture or the American culture, and wineskins from these cultures are not specifically blessed.

If the wine is more important than the wineskin, then we can worship together and not fight over which wineskin is the right one. If the wine is more important than the wineskin, then we keep going back to the Bible to rediscover the wine. And sometimes we decide to shed a wineskin in favor of one that works better now.

If you have wine, you need wineskins to hold it. But every wineskin is also a potential idol that can distract from the wine itself. That's why a living community of discerning faith is always essential.
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Bootstrap
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Bootstrap »

haithabu wrote:The Christian faith faithfully lived out over generations will influence the surrounding culture - if long enough, to the point where its host culture may consider itself to be "Christian". This was once the story of Europe. I don't think it is a bad thing in itself. I believe that something like this is a natural part of the Kingdom's leavening process which Jesus described.

The danger is that the culture may supersede the faith to the point where people don't think of Christianity as something which is a matter of personal belief or commitment.
Or we start to think that America is a "Christian nation" without even seriously considering discipleship, it becomes a part of our national tribal identity but not a call to follow Jesus Christ or the Gospel. Or in Europe, Christianity can become a cultural heritage, deeply bound up with classical music and museums and paintings, but with no serious call to discipleship.
haithabu wrote:Elsewhere, believers in a hostile or indifferent social setting may develop a subculture of their own. I don't thing this is a bad thing either because you need a counterculture to stand against the false values of the world. In Muslim countries where the religion is the culture, such a subculture is a positive requirement for sustainable Christian communities. This was the experience of the Dutch Mennonite missionaries in Indonesia.

The danger if it goes too far is that Christians will withdraw into a sort of tribalism and lose access for outreach into the surrounding society. There has to remain some cultural common ground between them and nonbelievers.
I agree. Another danger is that two different Christian subcultures that developed this way may be completely unable to treat each other as brethren. The core of our faith needs to be a common ground that unites all true disciples of Jesus Christ.
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Bootstrap »

YorkandAdams wrote:There are some of us who happen to like the cultural aspect of conservative anabaptism almost as much as we "like" the faith aspect (I don't have a better word then "like" at the moment). We see the womens dresses, coverings, exc.. and realize that there is beauty to the application. Not sure how much I would be able to distinguish the male equivelant, but in some areas I am sure you can. Now the reason it is done is because of our faith (or should be anyway). If the applications that are done end up forming a culture, then where should the line be drawn. At what point do you classify culture. Could we say that men wearing only long pants is a cultural?
We always pick the best wineskin we can, wineskins that we love and appreciate. That's right and good. Although I am not plain, I also see beauty in your application. Sometimes I also feel shut out by it, like there's a barrier there, one that would be very difficult to get past.

My favorite worship wineskins love acapella German music sung right or some of the best shape note music, also good Gospel music ... not so much modern praise music. But I've played in bands doing modern praise music because the wine of worship is more important than the wineskins I prefer.

But when we appreciate the beauty of our particular application, I think it's important to remember that it is just an application, there are other valid applications, and if we forget what exactly we are applying, the value of the application is lost.
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betterpromises2
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by betterpromises2 »

I just read that article this morning over my blueberry bread toast an coffee. My take is that the foundations for the author's discussion of cultural practices is the biblical concepts of non-conformity to, and separation from, the "world."

Could it be that different groups will have different ways of putting these ideas into their lives, and no group will do it perfectly- but isn't it better to try (and do it imperfectly) than to ignore or pay "lip service" to the needs for biblical non-conformity and separation?

We attend a tiny fundamental Baptist church. I believe our Pastor (who has sole and total power in our church, as per the bylaws - but that's a different issue) would say that our church implements non-conformity and separation by wearing suits and ties on Sunday mornings, and singing traditional hymns instead of simple worship songs. But I don't feel convinced about that.

Chris.
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Bootstrap »

I suspect Chris has put his finger on the real questions: what does the New Testament mean by not conforming and by separation from the world. Some churches have interpreted these as a call to create an alternative culture analogous to that of the Amish. Perhaps that's best discussed in separate threads about each of the passages.

When I was in high school, I knew some Amish who thought "the world" and "the English" are the same thing. If you start to look at anyone outside of your culture as "the world", you are probably putting most of the Kingdom of God into the wrong category.
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

If our "faith" is just a religion like any other world religion then what is this "Kingdom" that Jesus proclaimed? Is that just some religious concept with a mystical meaning or is it supposed to be among us now? Did Jesus come merely to establish a new religion, or to organize a group of people in a tangible way around a distinct set of values , mores and world view?

I would rather think that my culture is "the Kingdom of God" and my sub-culture is American.
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by Bootstrap »

Wayne in Maine wrote:If our "faith" is just a religion like any other world religion then what is this "Kingdom" that Jesus proclaimed? Is that just some religious concept with a mystical meaning or is it supposed to be among us now? Did Jesus come merely to establish a new religion, or to organize a group of people in a tangible way around a distinct set of values , mores and world view?

I would rather think that my culture is "the Kingdom of God" and my sub-culture is American.
What does the New Testament tell us? Faith involves putting our whole trust in God, loving each other by New Testament standards, serving each other and others, having the fruit of the Spirit .... nothing in the New Testament tells us to measure true discipleship by the clothes we wear or other cultural artifacts.

Doesn't Jesus address this with the Pharisees time after time?
37 While Jesus was speaking, a Pharisee asked him to dine with him, so he went in and reclined at table. 38 The Pharisee was astonished to see that he did not first wash before dinner. 39 And the Lord said to him, “Now you Pharisees cleanse the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You fools! Did not he who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give as alms those things that are within, and behold, everything is clean for you.
They had a concrete "holy culture" with distinctive clothing and ceremonies like washing before dinner. Jesus told us that's not what makes it real. The outside of the cup is not more real than the outside of the cup. And let's face it, all the world religions have their own cultures too, that's not what makes us different from them. If they have hijabs and we have cape dresses, does that make our religion truer than theirs?

Or perhaps I'm missing what you mean by culture. What exactly do you mean by the term? What do you think a Christian culture looks like? How is it different from Islamic culture or the cultures of other religions?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Culture or Faith?

Post by JimFoxvog »

YorkandAdams wrote:There are some of us who happen to like the cultural aspect of conservative anabaptism almost as much as we "like" the faith aspect (I don't have a better word then "like" at the moment). We see the womens dresses, coverings, exc.. and realize that there is beauty to the application. Not sure how much I would be able to distinguish the male equivelant, but in some areas I am sure you can. Now the reason it is done is because of our faith (or should be anyway). If the applications that are done end up forming a culture, then where should the line be drawn. At what point do you classify culture. Could we say that men wearing only long pants is a cultural?
Yes, men wearing only long pants is cultural. I think it is OK to have a subculture. The important thing is to understand it is different from our faith, even if it proceeds from our faith. Then we can accept, even celebrate the diversity in the body of Christ.
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