Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

General Christian Theology
ShantyShaker
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by ShantyShaker »

I think we are really lacking on this point.
We could both use such a mentor as we live few states away from all family. And the other part is we left our "mother church" and family didn't all accept that very well.
And I'd be willing to do this for teens through young/newly married men.
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lesterb
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by lesterb »

HappyHomemaker wrote:
Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote: Well, this thing of being called to a "ministry" of some sort seems very important. More so than looking after your own home and family. My daughters did a lot of work within various homes before they got involved in teaching. They got very tired of doing the menial work for such mothers while they were off doing "more important" things for other people. Eternity will reveal the results of this, I'm afraid, but I see it happening already in some of the children in those homes. There is a variety of things I could go into, but there are many things that seem more fulfilling than being a keeper at home and raising your family for God.
I understand and this must feel grievous to the older folks- I see the faultiness in what you are conveying and how there can be some 'coveting' for really 'seemingly' having these great ministries- and the menial work doesn't get the same admiration or recognition. I have witnessed this in churches I've been a part of too and no one wants to do the 'lesser' jobs it seems-
What happened to not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you serve? Jesus sees our heart.
No matter what the servant is doing. How menial (or SEEMINGLY menial) to someone who is in need, it is so appreciated.
Of course they hear of missionaries, etc- and could feel they are not doing 'enough' to spread the Gospel- etc-

This past Sunday I just 'subbed' for the Sunday School teachers off in August- in the 4/5 year old class. The story was on Dorcas and how the people appreciated her so much for making them clothes- her servanthood. A seemingly unimportant task but oh how they appreciated her! (Sewing to ME would be a monumental task for someone as I never learned it very well). Just saying......... I feel bad for what you are seeing happen.
I see what you're saying. Those homemaking abilities are very important for women to learn and I could see how young women today would not place as much value on it. But, to me, this passage goes so much deeper than that. Titus 2 speaks of reverence, controlling one's tongue, self control, marriage, parenting, obedience and more. All things that are still very relevant for the Christian today. If we limit our mentor relationships to homemaking, I would still think we weren't living up to our responsibilities. Also, I don't necessarily believe the younger women are entirely to blame. In my over 10 years of being with the Anabaptist church I have had exactly 0 women reach out to me as a mentor or offer to meet in some kind of intentional ongoing relationship. Even when I was new to the church and could have used a guiding hand. As the older, wiser, more mature sisters in the church, i think they have to take some initiative and embrace this Titus 2 calling on their lives. It is a responsibility God has given them.
If young women aren't willing to be homemakers, and to dedicate themselves to raising their family for God, then the rest of what you are saying will probably fall through the cracks as well. But don't expect women like my wife to take the initiative to instigate such relationships. It won't happen, because they know how the younger women would feel about it. So we just step back out of the road. We're available if someone runs up against a brick wall, but we're not going to nose in where we're not wanted.

As far as your case goes, you'd be swarmed with younger women, because that would be "ministering" you know. I know I sound a bit bitter, and maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but it's kind of a raw spot.
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HappyHomemaker
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by HappyHomemaker »

lesterb wrote:
HappyHomemaker wrote:
Valerie wrote:
I understand and this must feel grievous to the older folks- I see the faultiness in what you are conveying and how there can be some 'coveting' for really 'seemingly' having these great ministries- and the menial work doesn't get the same admiration or recognition. I have witnessed this in churches I've been a part of too and no one wants to do the 'lesser' jobs it seems-
What happened to not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you serve? Jesus sees our heart.
No matter what the servant is doing. How menial (or SEEMINGLY menial) to someone who is in need, it is so appreciated.
Of course they hear of missionaries, etc- and could feel they are not doing 'enough' to spread the Gospel- etc-

This past Sunday I just 'subbed' for the Sunday School teachers off in August- in the 4/5 year old class. The story was on Dorcas and how the people appreciated her so much for making them clothes- her servanthood. A seemingly unimportant task but oh how they appreciated her! (Sewing to ME would be a monumental task for someone as I never learned it very well). Just saying......... I feel bad for what you are seeing happen.
I see what you're saying. Those homemaking abilities are very important for women to learn and I could see how young women today would not place as much value on it. But, to me, this passage goes so much deeper than that. Titus 2 speaks of reverence, controlling one's tongue, self control, marriage, parenting, obedience and more. All things that are still very relevant for the Christian today. If we limit our mentor relationships to homemaking, I would still think we weren't living up to our responsibilities. Also, I don't necessarily believe the younger women are entirely to blame. In my over 10 years of being with the Anabaptist church I have had exactly 0 women reach out to me as a mentor or offer to meet in some kind of intentional ongoing relationship. Even when I was new to the church and could have used a guiding hand. As the older, wiser, more mature sisters in the church, i think they have to take some initiative and embrace this Titus 2 calling on their lives. It is a responsibility God has given them.
If young women aren't willing to be homemakers, and to dedicate themselves to raising their family for God, then the rest of what you are saying will probably fall through the cracks as well. But don't expect women like my wife to take the initiative to instigate such relationships. It won't happen, because they know how the younger women would feel about it. So we just step back out of the road. We're available if someone runs up against a brick wall, but we're not going to nose in where we're not wanted.

As far as your case goes, you'd be swarmed with younger women, because that would be "ministering" you know. I know I sound a bit bitter, and maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but it's kind of a raw spot.
I'm so sorry you've had some bad experiences in the past that have left you feeling frustrated. I actually do meet with a younger woman and I'm also a homemaker. I don't think ministering and homemaking have to be juxtaposed. As women, we have the awesome gift of getting to care for our home and family and, in certain seasons of life, that may be our one and only ministry. And what an important ministry it is! But in other seasons, God may bring opportunities to minister outside our homes. With prayer and the blessing of our husbands, I see no shame in that. Instead of making my life all about my children, I want to invite my children to walk alongside me as I live a life that is all about Jesus. We need to be very careful that our priorities outside the home don't overshadow our calling as homemakers, but it certainly can be done.

Also, if everyone threw their hands up and said "I'm not getting involved. It's no use." how would these young ladies know any different? Who's going to teach them and show them the beauty in our roles as godly women? Maybe I'm too optimistic. I could be wrong, but I feel like there aren't many from the "younger" generation on MennoNet to share their side of the story. I'm 35 years old, some people would consider me one of the "younger" women. I know how much I would love and value an older woman in my life. But like I said before, I was raised in a different culture where we were taught the importance of those kinds of relationships. But the same Holy Spirit lives in all of us. If Titus 2 is God's holy desire for us than I have to believe the Spirit that lives inside us will be at work in both young and old.
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Peregrino
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Peregrino »

I don't think mentoring type relationships would be well accepted in Plain churches. There is something in the culture that feels threatened by too-close one-on-one relationships in the church.

The OP triggered a long-buried memory in the back of my mind. When I was 20 years old, I worked on a construction crew with a 16 year old boy from our church. He was the youngest in a large family with a very high-conflict relationship style. Lots of yelling at each other and public put-downs. They shrugged it off as just being the way Lancaster County people are. This young man developed a real reputation for doing some incredibly stupid things in a bid for attention and recognition. We became pretty good friends, going out to eat after work sometimes and at times spending Saturdays together. I treated him with respect and dignity and he enjoyed our friendship without any of his usual shenanigans. I had no thoughts of a mentoring type relationship, it was just a normal friendship.

After several months, one of the ministers pulled me aside and delivered a firm rebuke for this friendship. He felt that it showed a serious lack of spirituality on my part that this young man was comfortable with me. If I had been "witnessing" to him as I would if I were truly "spiritual", he would be too convicted to want to be my friend. I was too blindsided by this approach to come up with much of a defense but as I recall, I simply told him that everyone else kicked at the poor guy and he needs at least one person who just accepts him for what he is.

I think this experience illustrates a fear among some to allow any kind of dynamic in the church that is not church-directed and minister-controlled. But my experience may not be typical of what other people are feeling in Plain churches.
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Valerie
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Valerie »

Peregrino wrote:I don't think mentoring type relationships would be well accepted in Plain churches. There is something in the culture that feels threatened by too-close one-on-one relationships in the church.

The OP triggered a long-buried memory in the back of my mind. When I was 20 years old, I worked on a construction crew with a 16 year old boy from our church. He was the youngest in a large family with a very high-conflict relationship style. Lots of yelling at each other and public put-downs. They shrugged it off as just being the way Lancaster County people are. This young man developed a real reputation for doing some incredibly stupid things in a bid for attention and recognition. We became pretty good friends, going out to eat after work sometimes and at times spending Saturdays together. I treated him with respect and dignity and he enjoyed our friendship without any of his usual shenanigans. I had no thoughts of a mentoring type relationship, it was just a normal friendship.

After several months, one of the ministers pulled me aside and delivered a firm rebuke for this friendship. He felt that it showed a serious lack of spirituality on my part that this young man was comfortable with me. If I had been "witnessing" to him as I would if I were truly "spiritual", he would be too convicted to want to be my friend. I was too blindsided by this approach to come up with much of a defense but as I recall, I simply told him that everyone else kicked at the poor guy and he needs at least one person who just accepts him for what he is.

I think this experience illustrates a fear among some to allow any kind of dynamic in the church that is not church-directed and minister-controlled. But my experience may not be typical of what other people are feeling in Plain churches.
Sad. I think there is a fear among leadership in some plain circles that cause them to discourage these relationships. We have a former Amish friend who felt strongly about encouraging the young people to use their talents for God. Being Old Order at the time, he felt they were not being used by God to the benefit of others and didn't want them to be just going along in the Amish way without a thought or concern to reaching the lost- so he had a lot of the young people have coffee at his cabin and tried to engage them in deeper spiritual life and encouraging more of what the Apostles encouraged- but then he was strongly admonished by 'leadership' and they were not allowed to visit him anymore at all. He was seen as a 'danger' to the ways they've always done it- which eventually led to him leaving Amish altogether finally.
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Bootstrap »

HappyHomemaker wrote:
temporal1 wrote:i think many older folks feel unwanted, they do not want to interfere.
younger folks don't know how to initiate, or how to respond.
There is a lot of truth in that statement, right there. And I feel like we are missing out on an even richer relationship with God because of it.
I agree.

I think it's right for older folks to avoid imposing themselves on younger folks, and I think it's helpful to be able to choose a mentor whose wisdom you respect. Ideally, I would probably structure this like the pastoral teams in many churches, where the church leadership identifies people who would make good mentors and says they are available, and someone looking for a mentor could choose one.

Incidentally, whenever someone feels unwanted, the best solution is often to find someone to serve. It may not be mentoring, it might be making cupcakes for the neighbors, serving soup in the homeless shelter, simply walking around and having respectful conversations with homeless people, offering to take care of the neighbor's children so the parents can have a quiet dinner together once in a while ... I find that I rarely feel unwanted when I'm serving someone. And if I ask God who I should be serving, the answer always seems to come.

And if younger folks feel shy about approaching a potential mentor ... I bet most potential mentors would be quite happy to be approached in this way.
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MaxPC
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by MaxPC »

In Catholic World, we go through stages where it's emphasized and then another issue arrives and we must meet the needs there. Then it comes back to Titus 2 needs and so the cycle continues as the Holy Spirit directs.
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HappyHomemaker
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by HappyHomemaker »

This has been really interesting! Thanks for your responses!
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