Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

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Bootstrap
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Bootstrap »

One more thought: isn't this also what Jesus told us to do when he sent us out to all nations?
Matthew 28:19-20 wrote:19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
What does it mean to make disciples of all nations? What did it look like with Jesus and his disciples? How did Jesus "teach them to observe" what he commanded them?

Isn't this a command to go mentor people, not just to preach at them?
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lesterb
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by lesterb »

RZehr wrote:HH, I think your observations are correct. It is my opinion and belief that the plain churches I'm familiar with have failed in the area of Titus 2, especially with regard to the older women mentoring and teaching the younger women.
It seems to me that young women are primarily taught by their parents. Yet older women do teach the youth in Sunday school class, so I guess there is that.
But when there is a teaching that is unique for women, or may be contentious, it seems like we tend to default to men teaching subject which isn't what we see in Titus 2.

We have had women meetings over issues, but from the sounds of it, the meetings simply became emotion dominated. So they quit, which doesn't quite seem right. Seems like with more practice and structure or something it could have turned into something good.
Our bishop has mentioned this to me more than once. He would be glad to see this happening, but he's never said so in a public forum. Our experience has been that the younger women who would benefit the most from this kind of relationship see no need for it, and would resist it. They seem to feel that they have a lot to offer to others, and that us older folks don't really understand life. So they go off to these women's retreats instead where it seems that a larger group of women like them get together and butter each other up. One of the women the I consider the most needy in our congregation was asked to be a teacher at one of those meetings. It's frustrating, but there's nothing that we can do about it.
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Biblical Anabaptist »

lesterb wrote:
RZehr wrote:HH, I think your observations are correct. It is my opinion and belief that the plain churches I'm familiar with have failed in the area of Titus 2, especially with regard to the older women mentoring and teaching the younger women.
It seems to me that young women are primarily taught by their parents. Yet older women do teach the youth in Sunday school class, so I guess there is that.
But when there is a teaching that is unique for women, or may be contentious, it seems like we tend to default to men teaching subject which isn't what we see in Titus 2.

We have had women meetings over issues, but from the sounds of it, the meetings simply became emotion dominated. So they quit, which doesn't quite seem right. Seems like with more practice and structure or something it could have turned into something good.
Our bishop has mentioned this to me more than once. He would be glad to see this happening, but he's never said so in a public forum. Our experience has been that the younger women who would benefit the most from this kind of relationship see no need for it, and would resist it. They seem to feel that they have a lot to offer to others, and that us older folks don't really understand life. So they go off to these women's retreats instead where it seems that a larger group of women like them get together and butter each other up. One of the women the I consider the most needy in our congregation was asked to be a teacher at one of those meetings. It's frustrating, but there's nothing that we can do about it.
It seems we somehow have the idea that the value of something is in direct proportion to distance traveled to obtain it whether it be medical care, a life companion, or spiritual help.
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Valerie
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Valerie »

lesterb wrote:
RZehr wrote:HH, I think your observations are correct. It is my opinion and belief that the plain churches I'm familiar with have failed in the area of Titus 2, especially with regard to the older women mentoring and teaching the younger women.
It seems to me that young women are primarily taught by their parents. Yet older women do teach the youth in Sunday school class, so I guess there is that.
But when there is a teaching that is unique for women, or may be contentious, it seems like we tend to default to men teaching subject which isn't what we see in Titus 2.

We have had women meetings over issues, but from the sounds of it, the meetings simply became emotion dominated. So they quit, which doesn't quite seem right. Seems like with more practice and structure or something it could have turned into something good.
Our bishop has mentioned this to me more than once. He would be glad to see this happening, but he's never said so in a public forum. Our experience has been that the younger women who would benefit the most from this kind of relationship see no need for it, and would resist it. They seem to feel that they have a lot to offer to others, and that us older folks don't really understand life. So they go off to these women's retreats instead where it seems that a larger group of women like them get together and butter each other up. One of the women the I consider the most needy in our congregation was asked to be a teacher at one of those meetings. It's frustrating, but there's nothing that we can do about it.
This really surprises me- it almost seems like the 'generation gap' has hit the Mennonites in ways I wouldn't have expected.
When I read the OP, my (perhaps false) assumption was that most girls in more plain circles would be learning from their own mother's the most and their mothers would be the Titus 2 woman mentoring them. Since most plain churches don't have a lot of 'outsiders' then the norm would be mentoring within their own home. It's a different situation then Titus 2 altogether, where Christianity was 'new' and their were converts from Judaism, converts from paganism, etc- to where your own mother might not be your mentor- but 2000 years later when children grow up in conservative plain Christian homes, it seems to me that daughters would be learning from mothers in such a way they don't need to look elsewhere.

I wonder where the young women as you mention, feel there is this 'lack' of understanding- what are older women missing that keeps the younger ones feeling like they just don't understand?
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lesterb
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by lesterb »

Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote:
RZehr wrote:HH, I think your observations are correct. It is my opinion and belief that the plain churches I'm familiar with have failed in the area of Titus 2, especially with regard to the older women mentoring and teaching the younger women.
It seems to me that young women are primarily taught by their parents. Yet older women do teach the youth in Sunday school class, so I guess there is that.
But when there is a teaching that is unique for women, or may be contentious, it seems like we tend to default to men teaching subject which isn't what we see in Titus 2.

We have had women meetings over issues, but from the sounds of it, the meetings simply became emotion dominated. So they quit, which doesn't quite seem right. Seems like with more practice and structure or something it could have turned into something good.
Our bishop has mentioned this to me more than once. He would be glad to see this happening, but he's never said so in a public forum. Our experience has been that the younger women who would benefit the most from this kind of relationship see no need for it, and would resist it. They seem to feel that they have a lot to offer to others, and that us older folks don't really understand life. So they go off to these women's retreats instead where it seems that a larger group of women like them get together and butter each other up. One of the women the I consider the most needy in our congregation was asked to be a teacher at one of those meetings. It's frustrating, but there's nothing that we can do about it.
This really surprises me- it almost seems like the 'generation gap' has hit the Mennonites in ways I wouldn't have expected.
When I read the OP, my (perhaps false) assumption was that most girls in more plain circles would be learning from their own mother's the most and their mothers would be the Titus 2 woman mentoring them. Since most plain churches don't have a lot of 'outsiders' then the norm would be mentoring within their own home. It's a different situation then Titus 2 altogether, where Christianity was 'new' and their were converts from Judaism, converts from paganism, etc- to where your own mother might not be your mentor- but 2000 years later when children grow up in conservative plain Christian homes, it seems to me that daughters would be learning from mothers in such a way they don't need to look elsewhere.

I wonder where the young women as you mention, feel there is this 'lack' of understanding- what are older women missing that keeps the younger ones feeling like they just don't understand?
Well, this thing of being called to a "ministry" of some sort seems very important. More so than looking after your own home and family. My daughters did a lot of work within various homes before they got involved in teaching. They got very tired of doing the menial work for such mothers while they were off doing "more important" things for other people. Eternity will reveal the results of this, I'm afraid, but I see it happening already in some of the children in those homes. There is a variety of things I could go into, but there are many things that seem more fulfilling than being a keeper at home and raising your family for God.
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Valerie
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Valerie »

lesterb wrote:
Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote: Our bishop has mentioned this to me more than once. He would be glad to see this happening, but he's never said so in a public forum. Our experience has been that the younger women who would benefit the most from this kind of relationship see no need for it, and would resist it. They seem to feel that they have a lot to offer to others, and that us older folks don't really understand life. So they go off to these women's retreats instead where it seems that a larger group of women like them get together and butter each other up. One of the women the I consider the most needy in our congregation was asked to be a teacher at one of those meetings. It's frustrating, but there's nothing that we can do about it.
This really surprises me- it almost seems like the 'generation gap' has hit the Mennonites in ways I wouldn't have expected.
When I read the OP, my (perhaps false) assumption was that most girls in more plain circles would be learning from their own mother's the most and their mothers would be the Titus 2 woman mentoring them. Since most plain churches don't have a lot of 'outsiders' then the norm would be mentoring within their own home. It's a different situation then Titus 2 altogether, where Christianity was 'new' and their were converts from Judaism, converts from paganism, etc- to where your own mother might not be your mentor- but 2000 years later when children grow up in conservative plain Christian homes, it seems to me that daughters would be learning from mothers in such a way they don't need to look elsewhere.

I wonder where the young women as you mention, feel there is this 'lack' of understanding- what are older women missing that keeps the younger ones feeling like they just don't understand?
Well, this thing of being called to a "ministry" of some sort seems very important. More so than looking after your own home and family. My daughters did a lot of work within various homes before they got involved in teaching. They got very tired of doing the menial work for such mothers while they were off doing "more important" things for other people. Eternity will reveal the results of this, I'm afraid, but I see it happening already in some of the children in those homes. There is a variety of things I could go into, but there are many things that seem more fulfilling than being a keeper at home and raising your family for God.
I understand and this must feel grievous to the older folks- I see the faultiness in what you are conveying and how there can be some 'coveting' for really 'seemingly' having these great ministries- and the menial work doesn't get the same admiration or recognition. I have witnessed this in churches I've been a part of too and no one wants to do the 'lesser' jobs it seems-
What happened to not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you serve? Jesus sees our heart.
No matter what the servant is doing. How menial (or SEEMINGLY menial) to someone who is in need, it is so appreciated.
Of course they hear of missionaries, etc- and could feel they are not doing 'enough' to spread the Gospel- etc-

This past Sunday I just 'subbed' for the Sunday School teachers off in August- in the 4/5 year old class. The story was on Dorcas and how the people appreciated her so much for making them clothes- her servanthood. A seemingly unimportant task but oh how they appreciated her! (Sewing to ME would be a monumental task for someone as I never learned it very well). Just saying......... I feel bad for what you are seeing happen.
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HappyHomemaker
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by HappyHomemaker »

Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote:
Valerie wrote:
This really surprises me- it almost seems like the 'generation gap' has hit the Mennonites in ways I wouldn't have expected.
When I read the OP, my (perhaps false) assumption was that most girls in more plain circles would be learning from their own mother's the most and their mothers would be the Titus 2 woman mentoring them. Since most plain churches don't have a lot of 'outsiders' then the norm would be mentoring within their own home. It's a different situation then Titus 2 altogether, where Christianity was 'new' and their were converts from Judaism, converts from paganism, etc- to where your own mother might not be your mentor- but 2000 years later when children grow up in conservative plain Christian homes, it seems to me that daughters would be learning from mothers in such a way they don't need to look elsewhere.

I wonder where the young women as you mention, feel there is this 'lack' of understanding- what are older women missing that keeps the younger ones feeling like they just don't understand?
Well, this thing of being called to a "ministry" of some sort seems very important. More so than looking after your own home and family. My daughters did a lot of work within various homes before they got involved in teaching. They got very tired of doing the menial work for such mothers while they were off doing "more important" things for other people. Eternity will reveal the results of this, I'm afraid, but I see it happening already in some of the children in those homes. There is a variety of things I could go into, but there are many things that seem more fulfilling than being a keeper at home and raising your family for God.
I understand and this must feel grievous to the older folks- I see the faultiness in what you are conveying and how there can be some 'coveting' for really 'seemingly' having these great ministries- and the menial work doesn't get the same admiration or recognition. I have witnessed this in churches I've been a part of too and no one wants to do the 'lesser' jobs it seems-
What happened to not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you serve? Jesus sees our heart.
No matter what the servant is doing. How menial (or SEEMINGLY menial) to someone who is in need, it is so appreciated.
Of course they hear of missionaries, etc- and could feel they are not doing 'enough' to spread the Gospel- etc-

This past Sunday I just 'subbed' for the Sunday School teachers off in August- in the 4/5 year old class. The story was on Dorcas and how the people appreciated her so much for making them clothes- her servanthood. A seemingly unimportant task but oh how they appreciated her! (Sewing to ME would be a monumental task for someone as I never learned it very well). Just saying......... I feel bad for what you are seeing happen.
I see what you're saying. Those homemaking abilities are very important for women to learn and I could see how young women today would not place as much value on it. But, to me, this passage goes so much deeper than that. Titus 2 speaks of reverence, controlling one's tongue, self control, marriage, parenting, obedience and more. All things that are still very relevant for the Christian today. If we limit our mentor relationships to homemaking, I would still think we weren't living up to our responsibilities. Also, I don't necessarily believe the younger women are entirely to blame. In my over 10 years of being with the Anabaptist church I have had exactly 0 women reach out to me as a mentor or offer to meet in some kind of intentional ongoing relationship. Even when I was new to the church and could have used a guiding hand. As the older, wiser, more mature sisters in the church, i think they have to take some initiative and embrace this Titus 2 calling on their lives. It is a responsibility God has given them.
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temporal1
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by temporal1 »

HappyHomemaker wrote:
Valerie wrote:
lesterb wrote: Well, this thing of being called to a "ministry" of some sort seems very important. More so than looking after your own home and family. :(
My daughters did a lot of work within various homes before they got involved in teaching.
They got very tired of doing the menial work for such mothers while they were off doing "more important" things for other people.
Eternity will reveal the results of this, I'm afraid, but I see it happening already in some of the children in those homes.
There is a variety of things I could go into, but there are many things that seem more fulfilling than being a keeper at home and raising your family for God.
I understand and this must feel grievous to the older folks- I see the faultiness in what you are conveying and how there can be some 'coveting' for really 'seemingly' having these great ministries- and the menial work doesn't get the same admiration or recognition. I have witnessed this in churches I've been a part of too and no one wants to do the 'lesser' jobs it seems-
What happened to not letting your left hand know what your right hand is doing when you serve? Jesus sees our heart.
No matter what the servant is doing. How menial (or SEEMINGLY menial) to someone who is in need, it is so appreciated.
Of course they hear of missionaries, etc- and could feel they are not doing 'enough' to spread the Gospel- etc-

This past Sunday I just 'subbed' for the Sunday School teachers off in August- in the 4/5 year old class. The story was on Dorcas and how the people appreciated her so much for making them clothes- her servanthood. A seemingly unimportant task but oh how they appreciated her! (Sewing to ME would be a monumental task for someone as I never learned it very well). Just saying......... I feel bad for what you are seeing happen.
I see what you're saying.
Those homemaking abilities are very important for women to learn and I could see how young women today would not place as much value on it.

But, to me, this passage goes so much deeper than that.
Titus 2 speaks of reverence, controlling one's tongue, self control, marriage, parenting, obedience and more. All things that are still very relevant for the Christian today.

If we limit our mentor relationships to homemaking, I would still think we weren't living up to our responsibilities.

Also, I don't necessarily believe the younger women are entirely to blame.
In my over 10 years of being with the Anabaptist church I have had exactly 0 women reach out to me as a mentor or offer to meet in some kind of intentional ongoing relationship.
:shock:
Even when I was new to the church and could have used a guiding hand.

As the older, wiser, more mature sisters in the church, i think they have to take some initiative and embrace this Titus 2 calling on their lives. It is a responsibility God has given them.
love this thread, reading with interest.
i often wonder, "who is teaching young people, male+female, how to be husbands+fathers, wives+mothers?" - with ALL that entails? not everyone is up to the task.

(in my mind) home making includes Titus 2. i would not separate the parts, menial from lofty.
Jesus did not shrink from earthly chores, all the pieces fit together.
not suggesting my understanding is correct. just describing it. :)

in our busy world, so much is taken for granted, "that's nothing, anyone can do that!" .. but, that is far from the case. proof is in the divorce rate, and incidents of abuse (spouse, children, elders.) so, evidence is: not everyone can do that!

possibly like you (?) i see a lot of potential value in the grandmas and grandpas of the world.
our youthful culture does not value elders like some other ancient cultures, we have much to learn that way. for a time, during my husband's illness, we lived as close neighbors to a young Korean family. the respectful, interested way they consistently treated us was memorable, even without fluent English. they moved. i miss them!

i think many older folks feel unwanted, they do not want to interfere.
younger folks don't know how to initiate, or how to respond.

sadly, the world is full of messages that women must do their best impressions of men, or they have no worth. this results in many problems, including unnecessary lack of self-esteem. personally, i'd be happy to see the value of women+children increased, NOT based on their ability to compete with cultural perceptions of "what men do," which, to me, is a waste of valuable time+effort. it amounts to envy+covetness, which are truly not worthy.

women are not small men,
children are not small adults.

i see this in the world, even in churches .. i admit, i'm a bit surprised to read of it in CM circles.
we all have much to learn.
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HappyHomemaker
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by HappyHomemaker »

temporal1 wrote:i think many older folks feel unwanted, they do not want to interfere.
younger folks don't know how to initiate, or how to respond.
There is a lot of truth in that statement, right there. And I feel like we are missing out on an even richer relationship with God because of it.
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Hats Off
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Re: Are we living up to the Titus 2 model?

Post by Hats Off »

HappyHomemaker wrote:
Hats Off wrote:I have done a bit of this with several young brothers who did not have the best relationship with their father. It is not something that is encouraged but it can certainly have its rewards. Being told "you have been like a father to me" more than makes up for any inconveniences or for the time I have felt the father's censure.
That's so interesting. So when you say "It's not something that is encouraged" do you mean that it is discouraged? Or that there just isn't a lot of emphasis placed on it?
It isn't talked about very much. I think SilentReader had it fairly accurate; must young people don't see the need for support - they are self sufficient. " What do the old people understand about doing business in this day - things are so different than they were when they were young?"

There have also been comments about "sowing discord among brethern" which I thought was aimed at me for my involvement with a group of much younger men. It probably is also a threat to (insecure) ordained leaders when lay people get too involved in guiding younger ones. As was mentioned in an earlier post, it can feel like a loss of control for leadership.

I fondly remember older men who took enough interest in me that they took the time out to talk to me.
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