Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

General Christian Theology
joshuabgood
Posts: 2815
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:23 pm
Affiliation: BMA

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by joshuabgood »

Re: OP - Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if Jesus would have been surprised, by the faith/works delineations that the Protestants make such a big spiel over.
0 x
Paul
Posts: 112
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:33 pm
Affiliation:

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Paul »

Sudsy wrote: I agree Jesus did not preach on grace.
I consider the parable of the prodigal son to be one big sermon on the grace of God to be honest. Even though the word "grace" might not have been mentioned like in the ministry of Paul, Gods grace was definitely present in the ministry of Christ. Another example that comes to mind is the publican that went home justified upon his begging God for mercy as a sinner, and the thief on the cross that received Gods grace.

But I think the fact that this is more explicitly mentioned in the epistles has to do with fullness of revelation, the grace of God in Jesus Christ has been fully revealed to the apostles after His ressurection and the Spirit of God has been poured out to testify of this aswell.
0 x
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Sudsy »

Paul wrote:
Sudsy wrote: I agree Jesus did not preach on grace.
I consider the parable of the prodigal son to be one big sermon on the grace of God to be honest. Even though the word "grace" might not have been mentioned like in the ministry of Paul, Gods grace was definitely present in the ministry of Christ. Another example that comes to mind is the publican that went home justified upon his begging God for mercy as a sinner, and the thief on the cross that received Gods grace.

But I think the fact that this is more explicitly mentioned in the epistles has to do with fullness of revelation, the grace of God in Jesus Christ has been fully revealed to the apostles after His ressurection and the Spirit of God has been poured out to testify of this aswell.
Good points ! Jesus might not have used the word 'grace' but He really did reveal what grace is about in the prodigal son story. I think that the scripture when Jesus said 'behold I stand at the door and knock' is another example of Jesus grace applied to a believer.

I regard the fullness of revelation through the apostles after the resurrection as a continuation of what Jesus would have said had He not returned to the Father. Jesus said the Holy Spirit would speak not by His own authority but what He hears (John 16:13) which I take to mean He speaks what the other two persons in the Trinity tell Him to. So, I, personally am not a supporter of red letter bibles. Either God continued to speak precisely through the apostles or He didn't and if not, then how much of what they said came from God ? But I think only some of what we read is timelessly applicable today to all of us and that is where we struggle with discerning what goes beyond that immediate audience.

Well, I suspect my views here may be challenged by some but that is fine. Won't be the first time I need to rethink how I see things.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
Hats Off
Posts: 2532
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 6:42 pm
Affiliation: Plain Menno OO

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Hats Off »

Sudsy wrote: But I think only some of what we read is timelessly applicable today to all of us and that is where we struggle with discerning what goes beyond that immediate audience.

Well, I suspect my views here may be challenged by some but that is fine. Won't be the first time I need to rethink how I see things.
Challenge: "All scripture" Means "All scripture" :hug: (see Joy's exchange with me in "Is it ever Okay to Lie?")
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Valerie »

Hats Off wrote:
Sudsy wrote: But I think only some of what we read is timelessly applicable today to all of us and that is where we struggle with discerning what goes beyond that immediate audience.

Well, I suspect my views here may be challenged by some but that is fine. Won't be the first time I need to rethink how I see things.
Challenge: "All scripture" Means "All scripture" :hug: (see Joy's exchange with me in "Is it ever Okay to Lie?")
Isn't it important to consider-

2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV) Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

It was on MD that I learned what 'prooftexting' meant-

In this particular subject of salvation- where it seems there is a difference of opinion on faith/grace vs works for salvation- it seems that rightly dividing the Word of Truth is important. This is where it often 'seems' where this gets complicated- and Paul vs James or even Jesus vs James vs Paul can make the salvation question- seem complicated- or too simple- depending on which passages we focus on.
0 x
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Valerie »

Here is a passage that reminds me that we are saved by grace through faith- but our 'works' will be judged:

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

It tells us, if I understand this right, even our works can all be burned, not survive the testing- - but he has not lost his salvation- perhaps his rewards- but if this is true:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think that Evangelicals tend to want to make it clear that our salvation is a 'gift', saved by grace through our faith- and they don't want to take away from that love of God by way of what John 3:16
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

From the position of an Evangelical when they are sharing the Gospel- I think in following Apostle Paul's way-

1 Corinthians 1:23
But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

An Evangelical feels the need to convey how much God loves us sinners- that He would send His only Son, to die for us- if we make the Gospel about our works, it seems to diminish the love of God in what He provided by way of atonement- that this truly is a 'gift' we didn't earn.
0 x
RZehr
Posts: 7024
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:42 am
Affiliation: Cons. Mennonite

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by RZehr »

Precisely, what is the gift in Eph. 2:8? Is it grace? Or is it salvation?
0 x
cmbl
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Nov 04, 2016 10:07 pm
Affiliation: Pilgrim, NMB
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by cmbl »

I think that 1 Corinthians 3, considered in context, is speaking of work(s) in the sense of "church work," i.e., laboring to build churches. God will test the quality of that work, and we can be saved as through fire if that work is found wanting.

I see a difference between 1 Corinthians 3 and, e.g., Matthew 7 or 25 or Romans 2. Those scriptures demonstrate that God will render to each one entrance into God's kingdom or the everlasting fire according to his works. In that judgment, we will not be saved as through fire if found wanting.
0 x
"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous."
Valerie
Posts: 5309
Joined: Fri Dec 23, 2016 6:59 am
Location: Medina OH
Affiliation: non-denominational

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by Valerie »

I know a lot of several former Amish that love to quote this passage that Jesus said:
John 6:
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
0 x
MattY
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:36 pm
Location: Ohio
Affiliation: Beachy
Contact:

Re: Did Jesus teach salvation by works?

Post by MattY »

I would say no.

Does God weigh our bad works against our good works, and we'd better hope there are more good than bad? Or is there a threshold of good works that you need to cross, and you better hope you don't fall just short? Is that how it works?

If that's the case, Christianity is no different from all the other religions of the world, according to which we are saved by our own good works and our own effort. One distinction between Christianity and other religions is that only in Christianity are we not saved by anything that we do, but by faith in the finished work of another.

Now, will we be judged by works? It is true, there are definitely passages that indicate a judgement by works. So I think we can say both that we are saved by faith, and we will be judged by works. So how to explain that?

I have heard an argument that the judgment by works is speaking of the greatness of the rewards for those who go to heaven (having been saved by faith) and the severity of the punishment for those who go to hell because they never believed.

I certainly think there will be variations in the severity of punishment for the unsaved, and in rewards for believers. But I don't think that does justice to the judgment passages.

The way to explain it is probably that true faith produces good works in the life of the believer, and so works are the evidence of having been saved by faith.

But then, what about the possibility of a "mistake"? What about those who were believers only a short time? And are all believers expected to grow at the same rate and produce the same amount of works, or a certain amount of works during x period of time? Or what about believers who struggled with certain sins, or who didn't have as clear an understanding of things due to things like culture and upbringing? What about atheists or followers of other religions who live, from a human point of view, moral, loving, upright, unselfish lives? This might be controversial, but I don't think it's always obvious or true that believers are "better people" or more outwardly righteous than unbelievers (I speak as a fool - in reality, without salvation we are all dead in sins, and there is no one righteous in God's eyes), when you consider it according to outwardly obvious standards of morality, love, compassion, integrity, etc. They should be - but they're not. Don't misunderstand me - the gospel absolutely does produce a change, a transformation, in people's lives. But perhaps outwardly, the change is relative to where they were before - perhaps they were particularly bad people before, and now are transformed but still struggle with the "old man". Due to the things I mentioned earlier in this paragraph, a believer may not appear to be better than the next door atheist neighbor who volunteers at homeless shelters in her spare time, etc. In fact, depending (again) on how much they grow, on their upbringing, peer pressure, culture, etc. they may be worse.

But perhaps the explanation lies in this: all our own righteousnesses are as "filthy rags" in God's eyes. Note, that's not "unrighteousnesses" or sins, but "righteousnesses", the things we do on our own strength to earn salvation by our own merit and prove that we are good. That is all unbelievers can do, and none of it is truly good in God's eyes, for it is not produced by a heart of faith. The ledger, for them, is empty. Believers, on the other hand, are expected to produce good fruit from a heart of faith. Only believers will have anything positive on the "books". And believers' sins? They are covered by the blood, washed away, removed as far as east is from the west. (There might be sins in a believer's life that he was struggling with, or had not yet been convicted of, etc, which will affect the extent of the reward - just speculating - but which are covered by grace, as far as salvation goes). But unbelievers' sins condemn them.

So I think that would be my explanation. Both saved by faith, and judged by works. We might also say we are saved by allegiance alone, as well as by faith alone. The word allegiance explains what kind of faith we are talking about, and what it means to believe in Jesus in John and Acts.
0 x
Almighty, most holy God
Faithful through the ages
Almighty, most holy Lord
Glorious, almighty God
Post Reply