ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

[Heirbyadoption]

And here we were doing so good staying on topic with the OP.

[Soloist]

I always respond to someone with this argument and ask what Christian women in Vegas wear. Generally they don’t know what to say.

Well, you could ask Annie Lobert.

Yeah the point being that if the Christians wore head coverings to separate themselves from prostitution then logic would dictate the same would still be true in Vegas. Not so much that someone has to be head covered in Vegas to be a Christian.

[Bootstrap]

Let me respond directly to the OP.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 11 in this translation- specifically on headcoverings-
in verses 5 thru 13, they replaced the word 'woman' with 'wife'.

To be more precise, the Greek word gune can mean either (1) woman or (2) wife. Only context can distinguish them. They didn't "replace" a word, they translated a word with one of its standard meanings. I think it would be wrong for any translation to just translate one way without providing a footnote that mentions the other possibility. I am not sure which meaning is intended for each verse in this passage.

To answer this for yourself, I think you have to look at each place this word occurs in the passage and think through which meaning is intended.

Then comes the footnote-

Greek gune. This term may refer to a woman or a wife, depending on the context. In verses 5-13, the Greek word gune is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first century.

I'm not at all sure that the veil is a sign of being married here. But there are several hypotheses about what exactly it means, and I am not yet satisfied with any of the explanations so far. I don't know exactly what the veil symbolizes. I have seen similar footnotes saying it involves temple prostitutes, and I don't think that's correct either.

And then the footnote to 'angels' in vs 10 it says "Or messengers, that is, people sent to observe and report".

Again, a lexicon will tell you that the Greek word can mean that. I don't know that "messenger" makes sense to me in this passage. But I'm also not at all sure that I know what "because of the angels" means in this passage. And knowing Greek doesn't really help you know which sense is intended for these two words.

[Neto]

Let me respond directly to the OP.

I was reading 1 Corinthians 11 in this translation- specifically on headcoverings-
in verses 5 thru 13, they replaced the word 'woman' with 'wife'.

To be more precise, the Greek word gune can mean either (1) woman or (2) wife. Only context can distinguish them. They didn't "replace" a word, they translated a word with one of its standard meanings. I think it would be wrong for any translation to just translate one way without providing a footnote that mentions the other possibility. I am not sure which meaning is intended for each verse in this passage.

To answer this for yourself, I think you have to look at each place this word occurs in the passage and think through which meaning is intended.

Then comes the footnote-

Greek gune. This term may refer to a woman or a wife, depending on the context. In verses 5-13, the Greek word gune is translated wife in verses that deal with wearing a veil, a sign of being married in first century.

I'm not at all sure that the veil is a sign of being married here. But there are several hypotheses about what exactly it means, and I am not yet satisfied with any of the explanations so far. I don't know exactly what the veil symbolizes. I have seen similar footnotes saying it involves temple prostitutes, and I don't think that's correct either.

And then the footnote to 'angels' in vs 10 it says "Or messengers, that is, people sent to observe and report".

I don't really know what all baptism means, either. But once I was in right relationship with God, I WANTED to be baptized, as soon as possible. Whereas before that I made all kinds of excuses, especially "I was already baptized in the Holy Spirit, so why would I need to be baptized in water?"

And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with the wearing of the head covering is not in right relationship with God. This is just what came to my mind.
Again, a lexicon will tell you that the Greek word can mean that. I don't know that "messenger" makes sense to me in this passage. But I'm also not at all sure that I know what "because of the angels" means in this passage. And knowing Greek doesn't really help you know which sense is intended for these two words.

[Bootstrap]

I don't really know what all baptism means, either. But once I was in right relationship with God, I WANTED to be baptized, as soon as possible. Whereas before that I made all kinds of excuses, especially "I was already baptized in the Holy Spirit, so why would I need to be baptized in water?"

And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with the wearing of the head covering is not in right relationship with God. This is just what came to my mind.

But isn't the Bible actually fairly exhaustive about what baptism means? You can ask why water has this meaning, but it's quite clear what the meaning of baptism in water is. And it's mentioned over and over again, it occurs in the life and ministry of Jesus.

When I think of things I really don't understand ... I think of things like the baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Paul asks this as though I should know the answer, but I have no idea what people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead. If I did, I might adopt the practice. But I really don't know what it means. The Corinthians did, but I don't.

[Neto]

I don't really know what all baptism means, either. But once I was in right relationship with God, I WANTED to be baptized, as soon as possible. Whereas before that I made all kinds of excuses, especially "I was already baptized in the Holy Spirit, so why would I need to be baptized in water?"

And no, I'm not suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with the wearing of the head covering is not in right relationship with God. This is just what came to my mind.

But isn't the Bible actually fairly exhaustive about what baptism means? You can ask why water has this meaning, but it's quite clear what the meaning of baptism in water is. And it's mentioned over and over again, it occurs in the life and ministry of Jesus.

When I think of things I really don't understand ... I think of things like the baptism for the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:

Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf?

Paul asks this as though I should know the answer, but I have no idea what people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead. If I did, I might adopt the practice. But I really don't know what it means. The Corinthians did, but I don't.

Water baptism is commanded, but some think it is a 'testimony to the world, others say the testimony to God alone. Yet others claim it is a part of salvation. I'm not aware that the Scripture ever tells us exactly what it means to God, or what exactly what it should mean to us (except simple obedience). (I was was forced to pick one of the first three ideas I mentioned above, I would choose 'testimony to God'. But I don't think the Scripture ever tells us that.)

[Bootstrap]

Question to people who have explored the history here: can you give examples of times when Christian women covered their heads but the surrounding culture did not, with some indication of why they said they were doing that?

In general, I don't think early Christians dressed differently from those around them. I am very much influenced by writings from the early church like The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0101.htm):

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe. For they neither inhabit cities of their own, nor employ a peculiar form of speech, nor lead a life which is marked out by any singularity. The course of conduct which they follow has not been devised by any speculation or deliberation of inquisitive men; nor do they, like some, proclaim themselves the advocates of any merely human doctrines. But, inhabiting Greek as well as barbarian cities, according as the lot of each of them has determined, and following the customs of the natives in respect to clothing, food, and the rest of their ordinary conduct, they display to us their wonderful and confessedly striking method of life. They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners. As citizens, they share in all things with others, and yet endure all things as if foreigners. Every foreign land is to them as their native country, and every land of their birth as a land of strangers. They marry, as do all [others]; they beget children; but they do not destroy their offspring. They have a common table, but not a common bed. They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. 2 Corinthians 10:3 They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven. Philippians 3:20 They obey the prescribed laws, and at the same time surpass the laws by their lives. They love all men, and are persecuted by all. They are unknown and condemned; they are put to death, and restored to life. 2 Corinthians 6:9 They are poor, yet make many rich; 2 Corinthians 6:10 they are in lack of all things, and yet abound in all; they are dishonoured, and yet in their very dishonour are glorified. They are evil spoken of, and yet are justified; they are reviled, and bless; 2 Corinthians 4:12 they are insulted, and repay the insult with honour; they do good, yet are punished as evil-doers. When punished, they rejoice as if quickened into life; they are assailed by the Jews as foreigners, and are persecuted by the Greeks; yet those who hate them are unable to assign any reason for their hatred.

If women in the broader culture cover their heads, giving it a cultural meaning, and Christian women do the same for the same reasons, that tells us one thing. And I think Tertullian is an example of this, encouraging Christian women to do the same thing North African women do, for the same reasons.

If women in the broader culture do not cover their heads, giving it a cultural meaning, but Christian women do, I would like to know the reasons they give, whether they are rooted in 1 Corinthians 11, and how they understand the text.

[Outsider]

Orthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.

Speaking of myths... Outside, could you direct me to some source material for this particular reason for Christian women covering their heads? Thanks!

Genesis

6 When human beings began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.”

4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days—and also afterward—when the sons of God went to the daughters of humans and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

1 Corinthians 11:
8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

As a spiritual signal to the Angels.

It has nothing to do with the culture in Corinth. It has everything to do with Jewish/Mesopotamian culture. The Jews didn't want the "gods" looking upon their women. And that was common to a lot of cultures.

Psalm 82
A psalm of Asaph.
1 God presides in the great assembly;
    he renders judgment among the “gods”:
2 “How long will you defend the unjust
    and show partiality to the wicked?
3 Defend the weak and the fatherless;
    uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed.
4 Rescue the weak and the needy;
    deliver them from the hand of the wicked.
5 “The ‘gods’ know nothing, they understand nothing.
    They walk about in darkness;
    all the foundations of the earth are shaken.
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”;
    you are all sons of the Most High.’
7 But you will die like mere mortals;
    you will fall like every other ruler.”
8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
    for all the nations are your inheritance.

[Outsider]

And this is very relevant. If the only reason they covered their heads was to avoid looking like prostitutes, then that symbol no longer means the same thing today.

My point was that it was accepted Jewish practice all over the world- not just in Corinth. And Paul says "On account of the Angels"- so it is for a spiritual disticntion, not a worldly distinction. My answer to HBA addresses this.

[Josh]

The Bible does not teach we are to stop covering ourselves just because the rest of the world stops. And the world around us is reaching near-nakedness.