ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Sunbeam
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Sunbeam »

Robert wrote:
Valerie wrote:Again he is making a point- as soon as a denomination decides to discard certain passages as 'old fashioned' then they go in a direction that leads to complete Apostasy-
So we should return to slavery and wives as slaves to husbands, not allowed outdoors unless accompanied by a male fromt heir family?
Are you suggesting this treatment of wives is promoted either overtly or covertly in Scripture, Robert?
And if so, where?
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Neto
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Neto »

Josh wrote:
Valerie wrote:Do you know if that is why MCUSA dropped the practice? I remember visiting a couple Mennonite Churches in Holmes where I was the only one wearing a covering (or in one case, there was one other woman covering)- assuming this would have been MCUSA
When those churches were part of the General Conference or of the old Mennonite Church, they wanted to be more like the world in the 1950s and 1960s, and so started dressing like the world, things like the veiling became inconvenient, and they wanted to be involved with radio and to watch TV. So as they embraced all those things, eventually they got rid of the veiling since it forces you to look different with a visible sign you are a Christian and obey the New Testament.

We can see how that played out in the present day situation in MC USA.
I don't know if it was typical, because it WAS Oklahoma, and a small farming community, but the Old Mennonite congregation nearest my home area (+/- 35 miles) was definitely not "dressing like the world" in the 50's & 60's - not even in the late 70's, when I visited there most often on my own. The women wore coverings, and the men, even the single guys, wore beards (w/ no mustache). It was a shock to me that the Old Mennonites combined with the General Conference later, because they seemed so different in our area.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Neto »

Robert wrote:GC was from Russian Mennonites who did not require headcoverings because they were not their culture to use them. ....
It depends on your definition of the term 'head coverings'. The so-called "Russian Mennonites" wore a covering over the head, generally a scarf, as is still the practice in many churches in Ukraine & Russia. My mom did until perhaps the early 70's, even though she had shorter than natural length hair.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Neto wrote:
Robert wrote:GC was from Russian Mennonites who did not require headcoverings because they were not their culture to use them. ....
It depends on your definition of the term 'head coverings'. The so-called "Russian Mennonites" wore a covering over the head, generally a scarf, as is still the practice in many churches in Ukraine & Russia. My mom did until perhaps the early 70's, even though she had shorter than natural length hair.
My congregation is almost entirely Russia Mennonite background and our practice is the same, scarf type thing for worship services or prayer meetings, and a smaller cap worn the rest of the time.

To my knowledge, the smaller cap is a more recent thing. And girls who aren't baptised yet are not expected to do it at all. Nowadays it has nothing to do with marriage, but apparently it did a few generations ago. Church leaders felt we needed to align closer to the scriptures in that regard and encouraged more consistent application to all women.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Neto wrote: It depends on your definition of the term 'head coverings'. The so-called "Russian Mennonites" wore a covering over the head, generally a scarf, as is still the practice in many churches in Ukraine & Russia. My mom did until perhaps the early 70's, even though she had shorter than natural length hair.
I could see this in areas. From what I was told by those old GC, the waves that came in from Russia did not bring veiling with them. Not sure exactly where it was dropped. Again culture does dictate for each group. I suspect there might have been some who did retain it for a while.
Sunbeam wrote:Are you suggesting this treatment of wives is promoted either overtly or covertly in Scripture, Robert?
And if so, where?
1st Century Israel was extremely patriarchal. Israelite culture has changed back and forth over the millenia that scripture covers. There has never been a one size fits all for the rights of women. Women were very oppressed. Take the time the adultress was brought before Jesus. The man was not accused or challenged, Only the woman. A man could divorce his wife and leave her basically homeless and without any way to provide for herself. This often forced the woman to go into prostitution just to survive.

When I learned of much of this, I really saw many different things in several of Jesus' teachings. In His own way, he confronted the way women were treated and gave them a much more equal place around him.

Much of Paul's writings do the same. Because of this, the NT is not as restrictive as the OT is in areas. In Leviticus, we see some really unequal and limiting settings for women.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Valerie wrote: Of course! On a discussion forum, sharing what someone else teaches isn't teaching, it's sharing- I think that if these were my understandings and I'm trying to teach them to you as 'student' or to take authority over you - then we're going into teaching, at least this is what makes sense to me. If someone is sharing something with me, I don't necessarily equate that with them being a teacher in authority to teach me- can I learn from someone this way? Sure- maybe they are too close for comfort at times but I am not sharing my interpretations, they were interpreted before me.
This sounds like rationalization to me. Why would it matter if it is your or someone else's interpretation that dictates if it is teaching? If this is the case, then all school teachers are not really teaching since they are just reteaching what someone else has taught them.

I also do not know where you get the idea that a teacher has "authority" over someone. A teacher has knowledge that they project or pass on to others. Jesus never took authority with others, but taught through stories, actions, and dialogue. I see your perception of teacher as extra-scriptural. Maybe it is a cultural understanding you are using.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Robert wrote:
Valerie wrote: Of course! On a discussion forum, sharing what someone else teaches isn't teaching, it's sharing- I think that if these were my understandings and I'm trying to teach them to you as 'student' or to take authority over you - then we're going into teaching, at least this is what makes sense to me. If someone is sharing something with me, I don't necessarily equate that with them being a teacher in authority to teach me- can I learn from someone this way? Sure- maybe they are too close for comfort at times but I am not sharing my interpretations, they were interpreted before me.
This sounds like rationalization to me. Why would it matter if it is your or someone else's interpretation that dictates if it is teaching? If this is the case, then all school teachers are not really teaching since they are just reteaching what someone else has taught them.

I also do not know where you get the idea that a teacher has "authority" over someone. A teacher has knowledge that they project or pass on to others. Jesus never took authority with others, but taught through stories, actions, and dialogue. I see your perception of teacher as extra-scriptural. Maybe it is a cultural understanding you are using.
It seems to me, back on MD, when this was discussed- people felt like when women discuss on mennodiscuss, it is not the same thing as 'teaching' and it is not the same thing as 'church' , but if I am seen as a teacher here, to an unlearned audience, I apologize, I don't see myself as a 'teacher' nor folks here as students-

consider this example by Apostle Paul, the one who said women are not to be teachers or have authority over men-
Acts 18:
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.

25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

28 For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ.

Paul doesn't seem to have an issue with Priscilla being part of the team to help expound the way of God more perfectly- I say this because perhaps I am seeing a difference in what Apostle Paul taught about women teaching in church, (which I am in agreement with him, that they should not) and being able to explain things in times like these- passing on what they have been taught- or expounding- maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way
Last edited by Valerie on Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Valerie
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Valerie »

Sunbeam wrote:
Robert wrote:
Valerie wrote:Again he is making a point- as soon as a denomination decides to discard certain passages as 'old fashioned' then they go in a direction that leads to complete Apostasy-
So we should return to slavery and wives as slaves to husbands, not allowed outdoors unless accompanied by a male fromt heir family?
Are you suggesting this treatment of wives is promoted either overtly or covertly in Scripture, Robert?
And if so, where?
THIS seems like rationalizing to me- it's using what you shared about old testament treatment of women, as a basis to not follow New Testament teaching on headcovering-
I honestly don't view the treatment of women in the OT the same way you do either Robert- I do see God addressing this in Malachi- to the husbands, of how they treat their wives so it is not like He approved it-
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Robert
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Valerie wrote:Paul doesn't seem to have an issue with Priscilla being part of the team to help expound the way of God more perfectly- I say this because perhaps I am seeing a difference in what Apostle Paul taught about women teaching in church, (which I am in agreement with him, that they should not) and being able to explain things in times like these- passing on what they have been taught- or expounding- maybe I'm the only one who sees it this way
When one picks and chooses verses, yes. Paul also said there is no male or female, but one in Christ. Paul also appointed deaconess and utilized women in house churches. Without women early on, the early church would have really struggled to get going. Paul often wrote one thing and did something else. I am not saying he was disingenuous, but that there were many stresses and strains bringing Jewish Christians together with Gentile Christians. This was a great divide early on. We gloss over it because it is old history, but it was a very tenuous and conflicting time. If one church was going too far in certain areas, Paul seemed to try to bring them back towards the center. Paul did use hyperbole, we just do not know exactly all the places he used it.

This is the challenge with taking certain things extremely literal. Unless you take it all literal, then that means we are picking and choosing, often to what suits our cultural needs. It also means that, because of translations, cultural nuances, and cultural changes, it can be very difficult to know for an absolute fact what was being said and meant when we use one or two verses by themselves. All scripture, even KJV is a transliteration and has been interpreted from the original. Many great theologians and experts in Hebrew and Greek admit there is a lot they do not know. We should be careful thinking we can translate better.

I would also say that there has been a lot learned since the 1600's when the KJV was written, which was a translation based on another translation. Using it as the gold standard will often find it conflicting with more modern transliterations. Some because words mean different things then they did in 1600, and we have better understanding of some of the Hebrew and Greek used in scripture.

Lastly, I see these 1Cor 11 as something that was a cultural issue for 1st century church, but something that has changed because of cultural changes, and a growing knowledge that women are not slaves, or property, but a human being with just as much right and ability as men. I have no issue with a women finding her place that fits for her, but I do struggle with others who try to tell a women where her place is. As in slavery, we have grown in understanding of humanity and the value of every person. Valerie, I have no issue with you teaching me. As I have said before, I have learned some great things from women. I do not see them as a gender. I see them as a person with value, wisdom, knowledge and ability. I see you the same way.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Lastly, I see these 1Cor 11 as something that was a cultural issue for 1st century church, but something that has changed because of cultural changes, and a growing knowledge that women are not slaves, or property, but a human being with just as much right and ability as men. I have no issue with a women finding her place that fits for her, but I do struggle with others who try to tell a women where her place is. As in slavery, we have grown in understanding of humanity and the value of every person. Valerie, I have no issue with you teaching me. As I have said before, I have learned some great things from women. I do not see them as a gender. I see them as a person with value, wisdom, knowledge and ability. I see you the same way.
Is it cultural when Paul tells women to revere her husband as to the Lord? or is it cultural to tell the man to love his wife as Christ loved the church?

Does a woman have to obey/submit to her husband or was that cultural in your eyes?
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