ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Robert
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Hats Off wrote:After reading through this discussion I came to the conclusion 1) that it would be good for us to have a fair understanding of why we do what we do and 2) that we need to be a little more tolerant of the other person's understanding on an issue. I feel that some of these posts show a lack of love and respect that I expect of fellow Christians.
I can come off quite abrasive at times. Most the time I do not even know I am doing it. Other times I know and like being the "devil's advocate" on things.

Feel free to call me out any time you see me being too harsh and loveless. I will be honest if I am doing it on purpose and accepting the times I am not being intentional.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Valerie wrote:
Joy wrote:So far as women praying aloud in a gathering, many hymns are prayers. And with a broad interpretation of prophesying, that could possibly be included in hymns, also.
Could be- but consider what all Apostle Paul taught about the 'gift' of prophesying in Corinthians, when he taught about tongues and prophesying- prophesying in the earliest days of the church seemed to indicate more than it does for most Christians today-

Think about what is said here in Acts 21 about Philip's daughters:
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Somehow I get the idea there was more to this 'prophesying' than we seem to conclude, although 'this' kind is probably not really practiced today- it kind of stands out as something not done (possibly) by all women-

Certainly, prayer would be done by all women, married or single. Prophesying? Did all have this gift?
When I said prophesying, with a broad interpretation, I was referring to someone recently saying it could mean "proclaiming", and that is often done in hymns.

No, I feel sure all women (or men) do not have the spiritual gift of prophesying.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Hats Off wrote:After reading through this discussion I came to the conclusion 1) that it would be good for us to have a fair understanding of why we do what we do and 2) that we need to be a little more tolerant of the other person's understanding on an issue. I feel that some of these posts show a lack of love and respect that I expect of fellow Christians.
I agree.
Valerie wrote:I probably shouldn't have brought it up, but when I read 1 Corinthians 11 in the ESV the other day- this translation bothered me, and so did it's foot note, which probably before the Anabaptists teaching me, I wouldn't have given it another thought-
I do confess to being one of those people who are concerned about various translations- and how they can influence people- and even the translations themselves, can cause more divisions-
I spend a lot of time on forums where we look at the text in Greek. Usually, a mainstream translation chooses a valid understanding of the text. If you got rid of the translations and read the text in Greek, you would still have to wrestle with the same questions. I don't know whether the passage should read 'wife' or 'woman', or perhaps some mixture in different verses. I'm pretty sure that the ESV translators and others are honestly wrestling with the same text and trying to translate it according to their best understanding.

If we have to agree on everything or else have division, we will have division. If we don't want division, I think Hat's Off is right on. If I say that my interpretation of this kind of issue is the only valid one and denounce those who disagree, I am choosing division.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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So now I know what Pastor Begg (where we attend) believes about it and how he would view the handful of us in the church, that do wear a headcovering of some type- :cry: (I do appreciate a lot of what he said, but I feel like he doesn't realize that Christian women everywhere, covered their heads, at least in church, for 1900 years)

https://www.truthforlife.org/
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Heirbyadoption »

Valerie, i was actually listening to Alastair on the way home last night. :D

For whoever- since the question came up a time or two, this might be of interested on the idea of whether only married women should cover. http://www.headcoveringmovement.com/art ... -coverings
Any comments would be welcome after you've read it (it's only a page).
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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It's quite interesting to me just how much influence Alistair Begg seems to have with conservative Anabaptists.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Bootstrap wrote:If we have to agree on everything or else have division, we will have division. If we don't want division, I think Hat's Off is right on. If I say that my interpretation of this kind of issue is the only valid one and denounce those who disagree, I am choosing division.
Would you apply to this to the "diverse" interpretations of Romans 1?
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by Bootstrap »

Josh wrote:
Bootstrap wrote:If we have to agree on everything or else have division, we will have division. If we don't want division, I think Hat's Off is right on. If I say that my interpretation of this kind of issue is the only valid one and denounce those who disagree, I am choosing division.
Would you apply to this to the "diverse" interpretations of Romans 1?
I really don't consider gay marriage and questions about veiling in the same category. I think the teaching on gay marriage is much clearer.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by haithabu »

Josh wrote:Here's what Luther said, and keep in mind these words are fairly archaic and have a very different meaning now ("Weib" in particular pretty much a rude word in modern German):
Ich lasse euch aber wissen, daß Christus ist eines jeglichen Mannes Haupt; der Mann aber ist des Weibes Haupt; Gott aber ist Christi Haupt.
A modern, vernacular German translation does this:
Eine Sache allerdings möchte ich zur Sprache bringen, weil ihr darüber offensichtlich noch nicht Bescheid wisst: Der Mann Ich will aber, dass ihr wisst: Jeder Mann. hat Christus als Haupt über sich, die Frau hat den ihren. Mann als Haupt über sich, und Christus hat Gott als Haupt über sich.
"Frau" is a lot closer in meaning to "γυνε", which can mean wife, woman, unmarried woman, virgin, bride - just like our own English word "woman".

(If someone is more skilled in Greek than I am, please feel free to correct anything I said.)
It's funny that that vernacular version is much wordier than the original German, just as it is in English paraphrases. That's one reason why I stay away from paraphrases: there is usually a loss of compactness and style without necessarily clarifying the meaning.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

Post by haithabu »

Valerie wrote:
Joy wrote:So far as women praying aloud in a gathering, many hymns are prayers. And with a broad interpretation of prophesying, that could possibly be included in hymns, also.
Could be- but consider what all Apostle Paul taught about the 'gift' of prophesying in Corinthians, when he taught about tongues and prophesying- prophesying in the earliest days of the church seemed to indicate more than it does for most Christians today-

Think about what is said here in Acts 21 about Philip's daughters:
8 And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

9 And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.

Somehow I get the idea there was more to this 'prophesying' than we seem to conclude, although 'this' kind is probably not really practiced today- it kind of stands out as something not done (possibly) by all women-

Certainly, prayer would be done by all women, married or single. Prophesying? Did all have this gift?
I think I've said this before, but that may have been on the old site. But anyway to me, the best fit for this passage is one which takes into account whole context of I Corinthians 11-14 which reads like an extended treatise on church order (with chapter 13 being a sort of parenthesis). And the fit I see is that the act of publicly praying or prophesying could be seen as a quasi-leadership function and so Paul directs that the women doing so should wear the veil (a symbol of being under authority) as a visual disclaimer that they are not acting presumptuously. Obviously this principle would not apply to women singing or praying corporately with everyone else.
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