ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Bootstrap wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:04 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote:Could some semi-Greek-literate explain for some of the rest of us how 1 Tim. 2:8 is a command, rather than Paul simply expressing desire? I occasionally lift hands, but based on the various concordances and lexicons on my shelves and online that I've been able to peruse, I've never understood the text and Paul's language to support it as a command, as is the teaching of the veiling. Perhaps I've been in error all this time, at least intellectually?
It's often hard to distinguish "I want you to do this" from "please do this". In either Greek or English. If you only consider something a biblical command if it is in the imperative form, I think you will find yourself dropping some pretty key Christian practices.
I'm not a greek guy, but I've always taken the "lifted hands" as being a manner of prayer that was common in the day, and the "without wrath" part being the command. YMMV.

I do lift my hands often. But more often I pray with a bowed head and clasped hands.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:05 pm
Outsider wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:39 pmOrthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.
Speaking of myths... Outside, could you direct me to some source material for this particular reason for Christian women covering their heads? Thanks!
I learned of it from Gordon Fee’s commentary on Corinthians, which my parents read and apparently their pastor in CMA church (?) also did.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Josh wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 8:36 pm
Heirbyadoption wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 3:05 pm
Outsider wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:39 pmOrthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.
Speaking of myths... Outside, could you direct me to some source material for this particular reason for Christian women covering their heads? Thanks!
I learned of it from Gordon Fee’s commentary on Corinthians, which my parents read and apparently their pastor in CMA church (?) also did.
I think this is one of those situations where commentators pass along things from other commentators without ever checking out the validity of the claim.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Outsider wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:08 pm I'm not a greek guy, but I've always taken the "lifted hands" as being a manner of prayer that was common in the day, and the "without wrath" part being the command. YMMV.

I do lift my hands often. But more often I pray with a bowed head and clasped hands.
"Common in the day" implies that this is a cultural thing that you would apply differently today. And I think that's the reason Sudsy brings it up - we have to understand what these things meant to them at the time, ask whether that gesture or article of clothing has the same meaning today, and ask what the best application is for us now.

Some people will choose to raise their hands and to wear a head covering as close as possible to what women in Corinth would have worn.

Personally, I raise my hands in prayer frequently, but the Bible mentions other postures in prayer. I think it's good to make use of them. I find that spiritually enriching. I don't judge people who don't.
Outsider wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:39 pmOrthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.
And this is very relevant. If the only reason they covered their heads was to avoid looking like prostitutes, then that symbol no longer means the same thing today. Almost nobody in modern America would look at a woman without a head covering and conclude that she must be a prostitute.

I think that's why people like Heirby and Ernie are asking for your sources on that. They probably interpret this differently.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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JoshScott wrote: Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:13 pm It's because the word for woman (gune) can be translated woman or wife. But the ESV translators are in error because if you use wife instead of woman consistently throughout the passage, it doesn't make sense.
I don't think the answer is obvious here, and I would want any translation to provide a footnote mentioning that it can be translated either way. This is a passage where translations struggle and you can't simply carry the Greek over without deciding what you think it means.

ESV actually translates this word as "woman" sometimes and as "wife" other times in the same passage. It's easy to see why when you look carefully:
... the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.
A wife's head is one specific man, her husband. This passage is not saying that every man is in authority over every woman. So "wife" seems most natural here.
Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.
Clearly, a man is not born of his wife, so here, "woman" seems to be the right way to translate. But it's uncomfortable to translate this differently in the same passage, and hard to make sense of it if we translate it the same way.

There are some other parts that can more easily be understood either way:
For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.
It also makes sense to say "For the husband was not made from the woman, but the woman from man. Neither was the man created for woman, but the woman for man." Especially when you read Genesis 2 carefully and see how "the man" and "the woman" are used in that chapter.

I don't think you can make sense of this without throwing in a little interpretation, and people will interpret this differently and apply it differently accordingly. Which brings us to this verse:
For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man.
Is the wife the glory of her husband, or is every woman the glory of every man? If every woman is the glory of every man, what does that even mean? Why would a woman need to cover if her glory is meant for every man?

In each of these cases, a translator needs to try out "wife" and "woman" as a possibility, think about what it would mean, look at how others have interpreted it, and make a decision. Preferably with a footnote pointing out the other possibility. You cannot translate without interpretation.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Outsider wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 7:08 pm
I'm not a greek guy, but I've always taken the "lifted hands" as being a manner of prayer that was common in the day, and the "without wrath" part being the command. YMMV.

I do lift my hands often. But more often I pray with a bowed head and clasped hands.
I think it is very interesting that regardless of the culture or the language that I have encountered, women who cover their heads are viewed as "set apart" for God. Likewise the raising of hands is often a help to the person who is praying. We have those groups in Catholic World who raise their hands in the orans posture. It helps them focus. Bodily posture is an outward expression that is a prayer aid for some.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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For what it’s worth, I think liturgical postures are important just like head coverings, but those traditions are almost entirely lost in Protestant circles.

Mennonites still tend to kneel for prayer in more conservative groups.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Bootstrap wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:52 am
Outsider wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:39 pmOrthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.
And this is very relevant. If the only reason they covered their heads was to avoid looking like prostitutes, then that symbol no longer means the same thing today. Almost nobody in modern America would look at a woman without a head covering and conclude that she must be a prostitute.
I think that's why people like Heirby and Ernie are asking for your sources on that. They probably interpret this differently.
Actually, it has more to do with what Ernie mentioned (of a commentator's theory evolving into accepted fact) and the fact that Paul's instructions to the Corinthians regarding headcovering were/are demonstrably (based on archaelogy and literature) NOT based on avoiding being mistaken for harlots... :? Not looking to start another headcovering debate, but neither is there any merit in the perpetuation of misconceptions regarding original intent, regardless of whether one still considers the practice of headship coverings to be relevant or not...

Jeremy Gardiner had a couple of short article with a few links which might explain my earlier request for sources.
https://www.headcoveringmovement.com/ar ... rostitutes
Also, two posts reviewing Bruce Winter's influence on the subject (which I will expand on in a following comment) and, relevant to the OP, the selective ESV use of gune as "wife" in parts of 1 Cor 11.
Last edited by Heirbyadoption on Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Heirbyadoption wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:37 am
Bootstrap wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:52 am
Outsider wrote: Tue Jan 03, 2023 10:39 pmOrthodox Jewish Synagogue where they still practice the ancient Corinthian tradition of covering their women's heads so they won't be mistaken for temple harlots.
And this is very relevant. If the only reason they covered their heads was to avoid looking like prostitutes, then that symbol no longer means the same thing today. Almost nobody in modern America would look at a woman without a head covering and conclude that she must be a prostitute.
I think that's why people like Heirby and Ernie are asking for your sources on that. They probably interpret this differently.
Actually, it has more to do with what Ernie mentioned (of a commentator's theory evolving into accepted fact) and the fact that Paul's instructions to the Corinthians regarding headcovering were/are demonstrably (based on archaelogy and literature) NOT based on avoiding being mistaken for harlots... :? Not looking to start another headcovering debate, but neither is there any merit in the perpetuation of misconceptions regarding original intent, regardless of whether one still considers the practice of headship coverings to be relevant or not...

Jeremy Gardiner had a short article with a few links which might explain my earlier request for sources. https://www.headcoveringmovement.com/ar ... rostitutes
This article refers to two Tyndale bulletins that are well worth reading:

Corinth in the First Century AD - The Search for Another Class. Dirk Jongkind
https://tyndalebulletin.org/article/302 ... ther-class

The Importance of Roman Portraiture for Head Coverings in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16. David W.J. Gill
https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/T ... 553bf87795

I agree with you and Ernie, I don't think it's likely that this has to do with temple prostitutes. I am more convinced by the possibility that it had to do with the Dyonisian cult. Knight argued for that, Richard Hays also favors that interpretation in his commentary on 1 Corinthians.

I think it's really hard to interpret this passage at all without some appeal to the culture of the time and what the veil meant in that context. And I don't think that's as straightforward as some people think.
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Re: ESV Translation on 1 Corinthians 11

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Again, with direct relevance to the OP, and maybe this has already been covered and I missed it in skimming, but it seems that the bulk of the blame for the ESV applications of gune as "wife" can be laid at the feet of Bruce Winter's emphasis on cultural analysis over textual exegesis...

For those of you interested but unfamiliar with who I am referring to, Bruce W. Winter is an Australian New Testament scholar who put forward a theory about the passages on women in the New Testament based on the feminist "New Woman" during the Roman Empire. In amongst his theory, he asserted that the head covering in 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 was the sign of a married woman in Paul's day. Therefore, it is a cultural symbol. He was connected with the ESV translators, who subsequently translated 1 Corinthians 11:3-6 under the influence of his theories in the following way:

3 But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, 5 but every wife who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, since it is the same as if her head were shaven. 6 For if a wife will not cover her head, then she should cut her hair short. But since it is disgraceful for a wife to cut off her hair or shave her head, let her cover her head.

Technically, it seems (at least to me) that the historical question of covering is to some degree neither here nor there. Rather, it is the 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 passage that is the main thing - in this case, Bruce Winter's theory actually changed the wording of the passage based on his historical studies.

I quote the following from Alistair Robertson's research on that as he has it laid out a bit clearer than I might say it. Again, it's a bit long, but it's of relevance to the OP for those interested in textual/interpretive accuracy, especially as regards this particular teaching and practice. I have included a link to his 11/28/22 Facebook article on the subject. https://www.facebook.com/groups/314749 ... /635831269
The first time I heard Bruce Winter speak on the background of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, my gut feeling was that he was wrong. So I looked for an opposing view.
There is virtually no one opposing his view.
In fact, there is very little engagement with his work beyond the world of conservative evangelical Christians, and, for the most part, they have embraced Winter’s conclusions so whole-heartedly that the ESV seems to have changed its translation to line up with his work! (At the very least, the notes in the ESV Study Bible follow his line).
This is disconcerting for me. If there is going to be a change to the reading of a passage in the Bible, I would have hoped that there would be a bit more discussion involved!
In the absence of more qualified people cross-examining Winter (Proverbs 18:17) – though I have found at least one since – I have tried to test his thesis by tracking down the sources he cites, reading wider and more recent historical work, and weighing the reasonableness of his arguments. I am not a scholar in either biblical studies or history, but I can follow footnotes back to their sources and follow an argument. And when it comes to 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 and head coverings, I have serious questions about the validity of Bruce Winter’s conclusions.
WHO AM I TO CRITIQUE WINTER’S WORK?
Let’s begin by bringing a dose of realism to what I’m doing here.
Nobody in the upper echelons is going to take this critique seriously. Who am I, after all?
I am merely a guy who attends a Presbyterian Church in Queensland, whereas Bruce Winter is the past principal of the Queensland Theological College where Presbyterian Ministers are trained.
I am someone who has a Bachelors Degree in Theology, whereas Bruce Winter is has a Doctorate and teaches people gaining far higher qualifications than myself.
I am a guy who writes (sporadically) on a blog; Bruce Winter is a guy who writes journal articles, academic papers, and books.
So what on earth am I doing?
Well, I just couldn’t let it go. I assumed that Bruce Winter put footnotes in his books for a reason, so I checked them out. And, as I checked them out, my gut feeling has grown into a conviction that Bruce Winter’s sources do not back up his ideas. At best, his readings of primary evidence could be read in a way favourable to his line of argument, but, considering other primary evidence, more than likely does not. That doesn’t mean that I have read everything accurately myself, but the gaps between argument and sources were so frequent that I have no hesitation in saying Bruce Winter is wrong. And in being wrong, he has given a whole new generation of Christian leaders and ministers a reason to ignore a passage on gender that is sorely needed in this day and age.
GENERAL PROBLEMS WITH THE EVIDENCE CITED.
Bruce Winter's two books that have information relating to 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 are After Paul Left Corinth (APLC) and Roman Wives, Roman Widows: The Appearance of New Women and the Pauline Communities (RWRW).
If you wish to listen to an outline of his ideas, you can listen to a talk he gave here: https://foclonline.org/talk/you-were-what-you-wore.
I have looked quite extensively at his sources, but here I'll just outline some general problems I have with his evidence.
1. Winter draws on material sometimes dating hundreds of years before and after Paul wrote to the Corinthian Church.
For example, he cites the story of a divorce granted on the basis of the wife going out in public without a veil from 166 BC on p82 of RWRW, though the quote itself is from Valerius Maximus who wrote about it in the early years of the first century AD (Memorable Deeds and Sayings, 6.3.10). That's 100 years before Paul wrote his letter to the Corinthian Church!
Winter also quotes a line from The Digest 47.10.15.15 (p83 n31, RWRW). The Digest was a compilation of Roman Law through to 529 AD (one scholar thinks no earlier than the 2nd Century), a compilation that was adjusted to get rid of inconsistencies and contradictions. There is no context that suggests the line Winter quotes was in force in Corinth at the time Paul was writing.
It is difficult to accept that such a large period of time from which sources have been gathered can tell us what the situation was in Corinth in AD50 or so. In fact, Winter himself rejects the evidence of statues dating from a later period because it does not show the same style of clothing as the period he is discussing (n9, p79 RWRW).
2. The evidence Winter uses is specifically Roman, which relates to the Roman colony of Corinth at the time Paul visited it, but he does not address the wider conglomeration of cultures within the Roman Empire at large. In After Paul Left Corinth Winter himself discusses the contrast between Roman Corinth and other Greek cities:
“These Christians had lived, possibly from childhood, in a Roman colony which was proud of its customs, and its inhabitants considered themselves to be culturally superior to those in Greek cities in Achaea.” p4.
Later on in chapter one, Winter gives an example of a petition that compared the Roman-ness of Corinth with the Greek-ness of Argos (pp19-22, APLC).
Dio Chrysostom also mentions the presence of many foreigners in [what appears to be] Rome around AD 100.
It is again difficult to believe that the Church in Corinth was given teaching which applied to all the Churches of God if it was based solely on Roman Law and culture.
3. Winter relies on very recent research. In RWRW he cites T.A.J. McGinn saying in 1999 that “Roman women have become the subject of renewed discussion by ancient historians in recent literature” (p9, RWRW). Winter then states:
But for that sea change, the research for this book would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible. p9 RWRW.
This is significant, and implies that, for the last 20 centuries, the Church was not in a position to correctly interpret New Testament teaching on gender. Can this be true?
4. Ironically, research has continued apace since Winter’s books have been published, little directly referring to Winter’s work, but some of it undermining his proposals. It is in the nature of historical research that theories are presented and then refuted as new evidence and new interpretations of evidence arises. To base the interpretation of biblical passages so strongly on our historical knowledge seems to indicate that we consider our historical knowledge to be essentially static. Clearly that is not the case.
5. Perhaps my biggest concern is the assumption that the cultural values and laws of the time hold the key to the interpretation of New Testament passages. Nowhere is there a consideration that Christian traditions or values may exist alongside the values of the pagan societies in which they lived. That there were influences, yes, but that Christian teaching was based on what the surrounding society upheld seems contrary to the emphasis throughout the whole Bible in which God seems supremely concerned to have a people of his very own, involved in but separate from the world.
But let us assume that the correct interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:2-16 requires the amount of cultural knowledge that Winter asserts. What are we to do with people of the time who had greater knowledge of their own customs and laws than we do today, and who came to differing conclusions than those of Bruce Winter? I’m thinking specifically of Tertullian (approx. 160-225 AD), who is used by historians as a source of information on Roman Law from the first century up to his time. He does not interpret 1 Cor 11 the same way Bruce Winter does despite living in a society and time from which Winter takes evidence for his own interpretation!
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