Distinguishing Mountains from Molehills

[Josh]

How ridiculous is it that Christians on two sides can come together and exchange presents on Christmas… and then go right back to shooting each other.
That Christians from the same family can shoot each other in a Civil War…
The answer is obvious.

And the obvious answer is ?

Don’t shoot each other.

[ken_sylvania]

Yes, I think it is odd that some 'people who can't understand what an enemy is' as they don't seem to believe we can have enemies that we can love. These would not be 'friends' either. But I think the argument for Christians to be involved in killing of people in war is when one does not have a hatred for those people but they must be stopped for the sake of others who they are trying to kill (i.e. the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust). Their way of possibly laying down their life for the sake of others as Jesus did. Is one loving their neighbour as themselves if they do not participate in stopping an aggressor who wants to kill them ?

And yet, everybody knows that the point of being a soldier is not to lay one's life down for others - it's to make sure that some other poor soul lays down his life.

You say going to war is their way of possibly laying down their life for the sake of others as Jesus did. I ask you, How did Jesus lay down His life for others? Did he call down an airstrike to obliterate the enemy? Did he resist? Did he do anything at all to make sure that Pilate and Herod would be stopped for the sake of others? No, no, and no.

You ask, is one loving their neighbour as themselves if they do not participate in stopping an aggressor who wants to kill them? I say that failure to use violence does not prove one loves his neighbor, nor does it disprove love for his neighbor. But I can tell you, I would rather die than to have my friends kill someone who wishes to kill me. If your neighbor loves the Lord, killing his attacker will only serve to keep your neighbor out of heaven for a bit longer while ensuring that his attacker can never reach heaven. Is that really something a Christian should want on his conscience?

[Sudsy]

How ridiculous is it that Christians on two sides can come together and exchange presents on Christmas… and then go right back to shooting each other.
That Christians from the same family can shoot each other in a Civil War…
The answer is obvious.

And the obvious answer is ?

Christians most certainly do not fight Christians. From there the question then is who is my neighbor. If your answer is “Christians” you miss entirely the point Jesus makes.
I’d find it hard to see a more clear teaching in Scripture without contractions or unclear sections.
I don’t expect to convince you, but the Spirit does not contradict itself and anyone truly Spirit led and not spirit led will see.

By the way the Spirit is not an 'it' but a 'He'. Isn't scripture clear on that ?

Regarding who is my neighbour, I understand Jesus to say they are those who are in our vicinity of life that we run across often. Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell. You can believe as you wish from where you get your understandings.

Going to war is another issue to me. If I was called to participate I would seek the Holy Spirit's direction as, I believe, the scripture says there is an inner witness of the Spirit in our lives able to guide us in the way that we should go and this is a more sure way of guidance than my interpretation of various scripture texts. Others may think the other way around and that is their choice.

Curious - Why are not all Anabaptists part of a one true church (not speaking of Holdemans) and all are Spirit led the same ? I agree with the apostle Paul that we all now see through a glass darkly and now only know in part. I think all of us will get some big surprises when we get to heaven and find the real truths about everything.

I lean more toward an eternal secure belief that Jesus blood continues to cover all and any of my sinning and this is not a license to sin but rather a wonderful truth that frees me from fear of hell.

[ohio jones]

Yes, I think it is odd that some 'people who can't understand what an enemy is' as they don't seem to believe we can have enemies that we can love. These would not be 'friends' either. But I think the argument for Christians to be involved in killing of people in war is when one does not have a hatred for those people but they must be stopped for the sake of others who they are trying to kill (i.e. the 6 million Jews in the Holocaust). Their way of possibly laying down their life for the sake of others as Jesus did. Is one loving their neighbour as themselves if they do not participate in stopping an aggressor who wants to kill them ?

A few weeks ago I visited a museum memorializing a family who rescued and hid Jews, and helped them escape to safety. I'm not even sure they were motivated primarily by their faith (in contrast to the more famous Ten Booms), as that wasn't part of the story that was told about them, but simply by conscience and a sense that it was the right thing to do.

He could have taken up arms against the occupying armies (first Russians, then Germans, then the Russians again) with no measurable impact on geopolitics. What could one man have done against the cannon fodder of the empires? Instead he loved and served his neighbors at great risk to his own life, and made a difference to at least a few people. Of approximately 100,000 Jews in his country at the beginning of WWII, about 200 survived, at least 40 of them due to his efforts and the help of his family.

[ken_sylvania]

Regarding who is my neighbour, I understand Jesus to say they are those who are in our vicinity of life that we run across often. Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell. You can believe as you wish from where you get your understandings.

I agree that it would be proper to turn the other cheek when someone retaliates against you because you have run across them often, although I wouldn't describe their actions as persecution.

If you are willing to use deadly force to protect yourself from those who would kill you, then you are not following the example of Jesus or of the early church who willingly suffered death rather than use deadly force on others.

[RZehr]

Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell.

I can’t help but imagine that if your friend in this scenario were Jesus, what he might say to you.
I wonder if he might say some like:
“Sudsy, put up thy sword into the sheath. For all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

[Ken]

Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell.

I can’t help but imagine that if your friend in this scenario were Jesus, what he might say to you.
I wonder if he might say some like:
“Sudsy, put up thy sword into the sheath. For all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

I agree with the sentiment. Although if Jesus was here today I kind of doubt he would be speaking in Elizabethan English.

[Heirbyadoption]

Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell.

I can’t help but imagine that if your friend in this scenario were Jesus, what he might say to you.
I wonder if he might say some like:
“Sudsy, put up thy sword into the sheath. For all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

I agree with the sentiment. Although if Jesus was here today I kind of doubt he would be speaking in Elizabethan English.

Now speakest thou plainly...

[RZehr]

I can’t help but imagine that if your friend in this scenario were Jesus, what he might say to you.
I wonder if he might say some like:
“Sudsy, put up thy sword into the sheath. For all that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?”

I agree with the sentiment. Although if Jesus was here today I kind of doubt he would be speaking in Elizabethan English.

Now speakest thou plainly...

Never know!

[Sudsy]

Regarding who is my neighbour, I understand Jesus to say they are those who are in our vicinity of life that we run across often. Those I believe we should turn the other cheek when they persecute us. But at the point of them killing me, which I have not experienced just only by their words, I suspect I would defend myself and am quite sure I would defend others around me from being killed also. I would try not, in this defense, to kill them but if I did, I do not believe this act would send me to hell. You can believe as you wish from where you get your understandings.

I agree that it would be proper to turn the other cheek when someone retaliates against you because you have run across them often, although I wouldn't describe their actions as persecution.

I was not meaning that I literally run across someone often. I was meaning I had occasion to be in contact with them often because we habit the same community.

If you are willing to use deadly force to protect yourself from those who would kill you, then you are not following the example of Jesus or of the early church who willingly suffered death rather than use deadly force on others.

So are you suggesting that a Christian who protects themself and perhaps their family and does not intend to kill an attacker but it happens is going to hell ?