Distinguishing Mountains from Molehills

[RZehr]

The two greatest commandments, love God, love neighbor. I don’t see how killing my neighbor is completely compatible with loving my neighbor. Seems like this would rank pretty high in “main things”.

[MattY]

When I think of the Trinity at the basic and fundamental level, I don't think of a word, or of technical details, or doctrinal development in explicating it. Like, you don't need to know all those things. I'm willing to discuss and defend the details, but the core of the Trinity is very significant in the New Testament.

The deity of Christ is one of the major themes or motifs of the NT revelation. It's in how Jesus is identified, but not just that, it's even more in how He acts. It's the drama that drives the Gospel narratives - his opponents recognized that He claimed to be God from the beginning of His ministry in Mark 2, to the climax at His trial. It's not just this or that passage that can be easily explained away, it's a whole cohesive narrative.

The Trinitarian formula is also very significant in the Great Commission. Jesus commanded His followers to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we're baptized into someone's name, we're transferring our loyalty and allegiance to him.

How can you worship Jesus and have him as Lord if he's not your God?
How can you have the Holy Spirit if you deny His actual existence? If He is not your God you have no allegiance to Him.
How can you have faith in God if you deny who He is? "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him."

[barnhart]

This might be controversial, but I would draw a line between doctrines, not based on how important they are, but by how certain I think we can be of them from scripture. There are some things that seem very clear and straightforward, others seem to be open to some interpretation.

Apostle Paul wrote with a lot of certainty but he also had a category he called "disputable things."

[Josh]

When I think of the Trinity at the basic and fundamental level, I don't think of a word, or of technical details, or doctrinal development in explicating it. Like, you don't need to know all those things. I'm willing to discuss and defend the details, but the core of the Trinity is very significant in the New Testament.

The deity of Christ is one of the major themes or motifs of the NT revelation. It's in how Jesus is identified, but not just that, it's even more in how He acts. It's the drama that drives the Gospel narratives - his opponents recognized that He claimed to be God from the beginning of His ministry in Mark 2, to the climax at His trial. It's not just this or that passage that can be easily explained away, it's a whole cohesive narrative.

The Trinitarian formula is also very significant in the Great Commission. Jesus commanded His followers to baptize in the name (singular) of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. When we're baptized into someone's name, we're transferring our loyalty and allegiance to him.

How can you worship Jesus and have him as Lord if he's not your God?
How can you have the Holy Spirit if you deny His actual existence? If He is not your God you have no allegiance to Him.
How can you have faith in God if you deny who He is? "Now without faith it is impossible to please him, for the one who approaches God must believe that he exists and is a rewarder of those who seek him."

Apostolic Pentecostals aren’t orthodox Trinitarian, yet they are very sure they worship Jesus and make him Lord. They also are very sure of the Holy Spirit’s existence. They simply think God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all the same thing.

Terms like the Trinity, hypostatic union, and miaphysite never show up in the Bible and are not foundational doctrines and practices, even though I do believe in them and affirm them. On the other hand not killing your neighbour seems very foundational to me.

[Soloist]

I don’t believe in the trinity.

One could ask the question, when did the church decide on the co-deity of the Holy Spirit?

I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t the first council Constantine called for.

[MattY]

I don’t believe in the trinity.

One could ask the question, when did the church decide on the co-deity of the Holy Spirit?

I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t the first council Constantine called for.

No I agree.
Because it was much earlier, and not by a council, but by teaching passed down from the beginning.

[Josh]

I don’t believe in the trinity.

One could ask the question, when did the church decide on the co-deity of the Holy Spirit?

I’ll give you a hint, it wasn’t the first council Constantine called for.

No I agree.
Because it was much earlier, and not by a council, but by teaching passed down from the beginning.

If it’s so important. Why isn’t it spelled out in the New Testament?

I’m suspicious of these appeals to oral tradition.

[Soloist]

No I agree.
Because it was much earlier, and not by a council, but by teaching passed down from the beginning.

Are you appealing to oral tradition? Or some specific writing?
I don’t see the Trinity in the early church writings. I see things that could be alluding to it, but the same could be said of scripture.

[MattY]

No I agree.
Because it was much earlier, and not by a council, but by teaching passed down from the beginning.

Are you appealing to oral tradition? Or some specific writing?
I don’t see the Trinity in the early church writings. I see things that could be alluding to it, but the same could be said of scripture.

Specific writings. They didn't express things explicitly in the same way as the creeds, but that's what you'd expect anyway. They weren't always careful in the way they said things, but that's normal individual behavior. You find some explicit statements and a lot of implicit statements about the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Tertullian, Ignatius, Theophilus, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Origen, Dionysus, etc. (Remember: I said earlier that at the core, I'm not thinking about specific details or doctrinal formulas. Origen, for instance, subordinated the Son and Spirit in their essence, due to his Greek philosophical thinking about God; but he still affirmed the deity of all three in one God).

[MattY]

The command to love God and love your neighbor is explicit and required. Love your enemy and don't resist evil is as well. The prohibition of serving in the military, or in law enforcement, or in political positions that have to do with the law enforcement or military? That's implicit - it follows from what was explicitly said. So Anabaptists do think what is implicit is important.

And of course there are other commands of Christ to follow. Antinomianism is heresy; works are necessary to salvation. But we are still saved by faith - or rather, by grace, through faith.