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Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:58 am

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:51 amI don't see in Scripture that it says to use removal/excommunication from fellowship on those who disagree about how to apply Scripture (rather than on those who deny core doctrines of the faith or live in unrepentant sin). We don't excommunicate or discipline people from the two Rosedale Network churches in our town, including people who've left our church to join them, even though there are important disagreements in application (i.e. no head covering). The Dutch and High Germans weren't from the same congregation, or even the same geographic area.

Doesn't this reveal what you actually view as doctrine worth keeping versus things that are "optional", though? The head covering is obviously optional - one can simply switch to a different "dealership" much as someone might switch from driving a 1960 Dodge without headrests to a 2007 Jeep with headrests. I personally view disobedience to the head covering, particularly someone who has been under teaching and example of it, to be living in obvious unrepentant sin. I would say the same about someone who abandons nonresistance and starts carrying a gun.

I don't see "worth keeping" vs. "optional" as a way to categorize doctrines. I know my church thinks the head covering is worth keeping. But we also think Christians can disagree about important matters, even things that make it necessary to belong to a different congregation or fellowship, and still be genuine Christians living holy lives - even while we think they should be doing some things differently. I think it's part of treating other Christians with love and humility. Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church. But most Christians don't think "essentials" vs. "unimportant things" are the only categories of doctrine.

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:14 pmI don't see "worth keeping" vs. "optional" as a way to categorize doctrines. I know my church thinks the head covering is worth keeping. But we also think Christians can disagree about important matters, even things that make it necessary to belong to a different congregation or fellowship, and still be genuine Christians living holy lives - even while we think they should be doing some things differently. I think it's part of treating other Christians with love and humility. Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church. But most Christians don't think "essentials" vs. "unimportant things" are the only categories of doctrine.

But where does this kind of accomodationism stop? If the head covering is optional (and it is, since a member can simply leave a Beachy congregation and join an RNoC congregation that doesn't require it to stop doing it), and nonresistance is optional... what ARE the essential practices and doctrines?

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 5:29 pm

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:14 pmI don't see "worth keeping" vs. "optional" as a way to categorize doctrines. I know my church thinks the head covering is worth keeping. But we also think Christians can disagree about important matters, even things that make it necessary to belong to a different congregation or fellowship, and still be genuine Christians living holy lives - even while we think they should be doing some things differently. I think it's part of treating other Christians with love and humility. Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church. But most Christians don't think "essentials" vs. "unimportant things" are the only categories of doctrine.

But where does this kind of accomodationism stop? If the head covering is optional (and it is, since a member can simply leave a Beachy congregation and join an RNoC congregation that doesn't require it to stop doing it), and nonresistance is optional... what ARE the essential practices and doctrines?

I don't think I put the head covering on the same level as nonresistance and believer's baptism, for one thing. But I started a new thread.

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 8:10 pm I don't think I put the head covering on the same level as nonresistance and believer's baptism, for one thing. But I started a new thread.

Then the question is why teach / require / practice it at all.

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:14 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:58 am

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 12:51 amI don't see in Scripture that it says to use removal/excommunication from fellowship on those who disagree about how to apply Scripture (rather than on those who deny core doctrines of the faith or live in unrepentant sin). We don't excommunicate or discipline people from the two Rosedale Network churches in our town, including people who've left our church to join them, even though there are important disagreements in application (i.e. no head covering). The Dutch and High Germans weren't from the same congregation, or even the same geographic area.

Doesn't this reveal what you actually view as doctrine worth keeping versus things that are "optional", though? The head covering is obviously optional - one can simply switch to a different "dealership" much as someone might switch from driving a 1960 Dodge without headrests to a 2007 Jeep with headrests. I personally view disobedience to the head covering, particularly someone who has been under teaching and example of it, to be living in obvious unrepentant sin. I would say the same about someone who abandons nonresistance and starts carrying a gun.

Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church.

I wasn't aware that the Holdemans do this. Do they separate marriages if a marriage partner leaves the faith, for instance, like the Reformed Mennonites?

Martin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:15 am

MattY wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 3:14 pm

Josh wrote: ↑Thu Apr 25, 2024 6:58 am

Doesn't this reveal what you actually view as doctrine worth keeping versus things that are "optional", though? The head covering is obviously optional - one can simply switch to a different "dealership" much as someone might switch from driving a 1960 Dodge without headrests to a 2007 Jeep with headrests. I personally view disobedience to the head covering, particularly someone who has been under teaching and example of it, to be living in obvious unrepentant sin. I would say the same about someone who abandons nonresistance and starts carrying a gun.

Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church.

I wasn't aware that the Holdemans do this. Do they separate marriages if a marriage partner leaves the faith, for instance, like the Reformed Mennonites?

I'm not the most qualified reporter but I have observed the experiences of my cousin and aunt in the Holdeman church. I would guess from their perspective everyone who leaves is "self excommunicating" by abandoning the only true church where salvation is found.

Martin wrote: ↑Fri Apr 26, 2024 8:15 am

Holdemanns excommunicate everyone who leaves their church.

I wasn't aware that the Holdemans do this.

More accurately, Holdemans don't believe that one can leave God's church without also leaving God, too. Since they don't view the church as "our church", but rather God's church, they don't hold a concept that one can leave, say, a Ford-branded church dealership and go and switch to a Chevrolet-branded church dealership.

Do they separate marriages if a marriage partner leaves the faith, for instance, like the Reformed Mennonites?

No.