Evil and Violence

[Ernie]

I can't search on Plain News because the site it paywalled. But the two articles you cited on Sudan are from 2014 and 2017 so have nothing to do with the current crisis and war that started April 2023: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Su ... 93present)

And the conflict in Myanmar is no longer really about the Rohingya. More recently the military Junta is waging war against the civilian population and tribes in northern Myanmar that are not Rohingya.

You missed the point of my post...
1. The reason for posting the links on Plain News is to show that Anabaptists are writing about needs in other countries. CAM does hundreds of current articles. Plain News does just a few. You can go to the CAM website and Kingdom Channels and read about current needs. Lots of articles. And Anabaptists are sharing with many of needs in many countries.
2. The conflict in Myanmar may not be about Rohingya but the Rohingya are in more desperate situation now than they've ever been since leaving Myanmar. So this is an example of not knowing about all the needs in the world. It seems that your focus is on the Junta war rather than the needs of the Rohingya's. So we could say the same thing about you. The point I am making is that there are huge needs in many places and we (you and us) don't have the brain space to care about all of them.

I'm willing to be proven wrong. But I expect across all segments of American society including plain Anabaptists there is more attention to Gaza than Sudan or Myanmar. And that is largely because we have more of a national connection to Israel than we do either Sudan or Myanmar. Israel is a US ally supported by US tax dollars. My point was simply that Americans do tend to recognize that they have a greater interest in conflicts in which their government and society are more inextricably linked than they do with conflicts in which the United State has little direct connection.

There is more attention to Gaza because of the news media talking about it more. But they are not directing more aid toward Gaza because of this. Tens of thousands of Plain Anabaptists care about needs all over the world and are sharing with them and helping them currently. I don't know of anything Plain Anabaptists are doing for Gazan's right now other than praying.

3. I'm trying to tell you that Plain Anabaptists (maybe not the few that you know about) do really care about needs around the world that do not have US involvement.

You are still viewing Anabaptism through a few anecdotes that you are aware of, and a narrow window from the outside.
You don't really understand Anabaptist life and thought.
And Mennonet is not a window into Anabaptist life and thought either.
If you want to understand Anabaptist life and thought, get out of your chair, go immerse yourself in the culture for a decade, and then come back and tell us what you learned.

[Ken]

3. I'm trying to tell you that Plain Anabaptists (maybe not the few that you know about) do really care about needs around the world that do not have US involvement.

You are still viewing Anabaptism through a few anecdotes that you are aware of, and a narrow window from the outside.
You don't really understand Anabaptist life and thought.
And Mennonet is not a window into Anabaptist life and thought either.
If you want to understand Anabaptist life and thought, get out of your chair, go immerse yourself in the culture for a decade, and then come back and tell us what you learned.

I grew up in an Anabaptist household and attended an Anabaptist college. My father (later in life) was an Anabaptist minister. I have grandfathers, great grandfathers, cousins, and uncles who were Anabaptist ministers and missionaries. I have relatives and family who are members of Anabaptist churches ranging from MCUSA to Old Order Amish and various intermediate points in-between. So my window on the Anabaptist world is quite a bit larger than just Mennonet.

I fully understand where conservative Anabaptist theology is coming from. I simply disagree with the notion that members of a democratic society have no collective responsibility for what their nation is doing on their behalf, both here at home and internationally. Even if they choose to completely disengage as is their right in a democracy. The world we live in is far different from that of a far-flung province of the Roman Empire under Caesar Augustus. Or the Old Testament world under Hebrew kings and foreign conquerors. We are citizens not subjects and that distinction has meaning. What form that collective responsibility takes, and what obligations it confers, is an entirely different and wide-open topic for discussion.

[NedFlanders]

But some of the things you state are so far off from what CA’s believe, do and are about that you have convinced me (and some others it seems) that you don’t have a close idea in reality what Conservative Anabaptists are about, or what you call CA’s is drastically different than what others do.

[temporal1]

Ernie,
Ken’s experience and views notwithstanding, your words above are valuable and helpful beyond measure.
i’ve been reading and learning over years now, enough from lots of CMs that your words resonate.

No one life is for everyone, scriptures do not suggest it.
It’s comforting to know, rewarding, productive life is possible outside the mainstream.

[Ken]

But some of the things you state are so far off from what CA’s believe, do and are about that you have convinced me (and some others it seems) that you don’t have a close idea in reality what Conservative Anabaptists are about, or what you call CA’s is drastically different than what others do.

There is always a big gap between theory and practice in religion and everywhere else. Take my own profession, teaching. A whole lot of people have their own ideas of what the ideal teacher looks like, or the ideal curriculum. Some of them even write books about it and teach seminars that I'm forced to go to. But when you are find yourself in a classroom with 30 students with limited time and resources, a whole lot of that goes out the window and you have to figure out what works for you and your particular unique group of students.

I view a lot of religious practice similarly. To cite some random examples: Corporal punishment, education, and dress. I understand where at least some CAs are coming from in these areas because I have heard the arguments and read them. I simply don't find them compelling in practice (or even theologically). Similarly, I understand the theological argument behind the idea that one can live in a society but have not responsibility for what that society does on our behalf. And I also disagree with it.

As I get older I spend more time reflecting on what I believe when it comes to religion as well as society. Part of that is exploring my past. My daughter and I are currently engaged in a genealogy and family history project that is uncovering a lot of fascinating material. Both on my Anabaptist side and my wife's South American Catholic roots. And in recent years I've spent a lot of time with my father and mother chatting about their lives and experiences. As well as with cousins who have grown up in far more strict conservative settings. So I have a great interest in where my parents, grandparents, and great grandparents were coming from and what our roots are. Some of it I find extremely compelling. Some of it not so much.

For me I think this forum is a place to explore and discuss what we believe. I don't think many people's minds are changed here. But I don't think that is really the point. Having a diversity of views discussed allows one to hone what they actually believe for themselves by actually thinking it through rather than repeating it by rote. If you only associate with those with whom you are in 100% agreement that never happens. It is also incredibly boring. I also think a forum like this allows people to interact with others in ways that simply don't ever seem to happen in real life. When I'm at events with family who are much more conservative than me, we never talk about any of these things. We chat about our children, house projects, our gardens and the weather, or old memories. Not things like the Anabaptist relationship to the state.

[Ernie]

But some of the things you state are so far off from what CA’s believe, do and are about that you have convinced me (and some others it seems) that you don’t have a close idea in reality what Conservative Anabaptists are about, or what you call CA’s is drastically different than what others do.

Yes.
The anecdotes that Ken shares about conservative Anabaptists generally refer to progressive-(fundamental)-conservatives or theological conservatives who are rather rapidly transitioning away from historical Anabaptism. (There are maybe 10,000-20,000 such folks.)
But these anecdotes and the people described in these anecdotes, do not describe the majority of "conservative" Anabaptists. (There are approximately 700,000 Plain folks who are not transitioning very much.) This is the point that Ned and I are trying to explain.

As it relates to this thread...
The large majority of old order and conservative Anabaptists (Plain people) are not transitioning very much, and they are not following what is happening in Israel/Gaza.
Many are giving money, aid, and time to needy people in parts of the world that are not mentioned much in the media. They read newsletters from CAM and other organizations about needs around the world and they give to those needs. In this way, these people actually have a better understanding of what is happening in the world because they are not letting the media decide for them which groups they should be giving attention to. They are letting non-profit aid organizations do this.

[Ernie]

I fully understand where conservative Anabaptist theology is coming from.

I disagree, but we don't have to dive into this any deeper.

I simply disagree with the notion that members of a democratic society have no collective responsibility for what their nation is doing on their behalf, both here at home and internationally.

Yes, we understand that you disagree.