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Valerie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 12:48 pm Because like other Protestants, you assume wrongly by misunderstanding or blaming Constantine for this & that when things were from those taught by Apostles. A wise person will try to understand things they clearly don't.
Best to stick with milk.

I can see that you are very passionate about your understanding of these things. And I am also passionate about mine. Like you, I am trying my best to live the faith given to us by Jesus and the Apostles.

When you talk to us this way, though, it feels like you are saying we have no right to discuss this from our point of view, on a Mennonite forum. Some of us have actually spent quite a bit of time looking at the early Church and come to different conclusions than you. I would like to be able to talk openly about that, explaining our reasons.

I think I actually understand a few things about the early Fathers and early church history. And I have different understandings of Constantine than you do. We sometimes shy away from this because people get offended, but the way we understand this is actually fairly central to who Mennonites are. And why we reject sacral religion.

Even after "converting" to Christianity, Constantine continued to fund pagan cults and temples. He remained Pontifex Maximus - the high priest of the Roman Pontiffs, the priests of the Roman State Religion. Coins of Constantine continued to feature Sol Invictus, the "uncconquered sun god". The Arch of Constantine also features Sol Invictus.

I think any understanding of Constantine needs to take these things into account.

I will list what I think are some undisputed facts.

1. Constantine's mother was a Christian according to Eusebius.
2. There is no record of Constantine mentioning anything about the sign he saw on the sun until ten years after his historic victory against Maxentius. Following the victory, there is no record that Constantine gave God or Jesus any credit for the victory until 10 years later.
3. The sign he had his soldiers paint on their shields was the chi-rho symbol, not a cross. The chi-rho symbol was a pagan good luck symbol.
4.Constantine the Great made Christianity popular.
5. Constantine joined church and state, then used force to punish those who would not toe the line of his Christian government.
6. Constantine ordered the death penalty for those he considered heretics, people who defied his version of church.
7. Constantine paved the way for the rise of a religious Roman government that would prove to be horrific for many years.
8. The result was a unification of church and state—a move that would be the catalyst to the egregious abuses that took place over the next 1,500 years during what has come to be known as the Dark Ages.

If anyone has evidence to dispute these, feel free to bring it forward. When I say evidence, I am not talking about supposition.

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm I will list what I think are some undisputed facts.

1. Constantine's mother was a Christian according to Eusebius.
2. There is no record of Constantine mentioning anything about the sign he saw on the sun until ten years after his historic victory against Maxentius. Following the victory, there is no record that Constantine gave God or Jesus any credit for the victory until 10 years later.
3. The sign he had his soldiers paint on their shields was the chi-rho symbol, not a cross. The chi-rho symbol was a pagan good luck symbol.
4.Constantine the Great made Christianity popular.
5. Constantine joined church and state, then used force to punish those who would not toe the line of his Christian government.
6. Constantine ordered the death penalty for those he considered heretics, people who defied his version of church.
7. Constantine paved the way for the rise of a religious Roman government that would prove to be horrific for many years.
8. The result was a unification of church and state—a move that would be the catalyst to the egregious abuses that took place over the next 1,500 years during what has come to be known as the Dark Ages.

If anyone has evidence to dispute these, feel free to bring it forward. When I say evidence, I am not talking about supposition.

8. Is a little tendentious. The term “Dark Ages” is passeè. It also refers, or used to refer, to the period after the Fall of Rome which comes well after the “Constantinian Conversion of the Empire”.

HondurasKeiser wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 8:07 pm

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm I will list what I think are some undisputed facts.

1. Constantine's mother was a Christian according to Eusebius.
2. There is no record of Constantine mentioning anything about the sign he saw on the sun until ten years after his historic victory against Maxentius. Following the victory, there is no record that Constantine gave God or Jesus any credit for the victory until 10 years later.
3. The sign he had his soldiers paint on their shields was the chi-rho symbol, not a cross. The chi-rho symbol was a pagan good luck symbol.
4.Constantine the Great made Christianity popular.
5. Constantine joined church and state, then used force to punish those who would not toe the line of his Christian government.
6. Constantine ordered the death penalty for those he considered heretics, people who defied his version of church.
7. Constantine paved the way for the rise of a religious Roman government that would prove to be horrific for many years.
8. The result was a unification of church and state—a move that would be the catalyst to the egregious abuses that took place over the next 1,500 years during what has come to be known as the Dark Ages.

If anyone has evidence to dispute these, feel free to bring it forward. When I say evidence, I am not talking about supposition.

8. Is a little tendentious. The term “Dark Ages” is passeè. It also refers, or used to refer, to the period after the Fall of Rome which comes well after the “Constantinian Conversion of the Empire”.

Agreed. Another way less inflammatory way of framing this is that the Church during the medieval period was the primary steward of the remnants of Roman culture and thought -- they preserved many of the manuscripts (along with the Moorish Arabs) and Greco-Roman ideals that helped spark the Renaissance.

Also, I want to point out that the part of the Roman Empire that collapsed was the Western part. The Eastern part survived the fall of Rome and became the Byzantine Empire centered around Constantinople. It survived for almost another 1000 years until the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:15 pmAgreed. Another way less inflammatory way of framing this is that the Church during the medieval period was the primary steward of the remnants of Roman culture and thought -- they preserved many of the manuscripts (along with the Moorish Arabs) and Greco-Roman ideals that helped spark the Renaissance.

Also, I want to point out that the part of the Roman Empire that collapsed was the Western part. The Eastern part survived the fall of Rome and became the Byzantine Empire centered around Constantinople. It survived for almost another 1000 years until the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

I agree. And I'd like to fact check a few of these points in that light.

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm 2. There is no record of Constantine mentioning anything about the sign he saw on the sun until ten years after his historic victory against Maxentius. Following the victory, there is no record that Constantine gave God or Jesus any credit for the victory until 10 years later.
3. The sign he had his soldiers paint on their shields was the chi-rho symbol, not a cross. The chi-rho symbol was a pagan good luck symbol.

I agree that he did not mention anything about the sign until 10 years after his victory, and the Arch of Constantine that was erected bears pagan imagery, not Christian imagery. But the sign he had soldiers put on their shields was Christian, derived from the name of Jesus, and had no pagan meaning that I can find.[/quote]

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm8. The result was a unification of church and state—a move that would be the catalyst to the egregious abuses that took place over the next 1,500 years during what has come to be known as the Dark Ages.

Ancient Rome had a unification of church and state going way, way back. Most governments did in the Ancient Near East. So Constantine preserved this. But he promoted pagan religion too, throughout his lifetime. It wasn't until after his lifetime that Christianity became the dominant religion of Rome. Emperor Theodosius I declared Christianity the official state religion in 380 AD.

The early church had no government to back it. Neither did Mennonites in the 1500s. They were both strangers and aliens. They both faced real persecution.

Szdfan wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 1:15 pm Agreed. Another way less inflammatory way of framing this is that the Church during the medieval period was the primary steward of the remnants of Roman culture and thought -- they preserved many of the manuscripts (along with the Moorish Arabs) and Greco-Roman ideals that helped spark the Renaissance.

Also, I want to point out that the part of the Roman Empire that collapsed was the Western part. The Eastern part survived the fall of Rome and became the Byzantine Empire centered around Constantinople. It survived for almost another 1000 years until the fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks in 1453.

Interesting. i hope HK will respond, too.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:02 pm Ancient Rome had a unification of church and state going way, way back. Most governments did in the Ancient Near East. So Constantine preserved this. But he promoted pagan religion too, throughout his lifetime. It wasn't until after his lifetime that Christianity became the dominant religion of Rome. Emperor Theodosius I declared Christianity the official state religion in 380 AD.

He started the trajectory toward Theodosius' declaration, but it was not a constant progression (the intervening emperor Julian the Apostate was thoroughly pagan). Even Theodosius was more of a milestone than a destination:

Wikipedia wrote:For centuries after his death, Theodosius was regarded as a champion of Christian orthodoxy who decisively stamped out paganism. Modern scholars tend to see this as an interpretation of history by Christian writers more than an accurate representation of actual history.

It's much easier to just Blame Constantine than to form a more nuanced view of the historical timeline.

Bootstrap wrote: ↑Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:02 pmBut the sign he had soldiers put on their shields was Christian, derived from the name of Jesus, and had no pagan meaning that I can find.

My reading so far is that this is speculation. Not a fact.

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm 5. Constantine joined church and state, then used force to punish those who would not toe the line of his Christian government.
6. Constantine ordered the death penalty for those he considered heretics, people who defied his version of church.

Can you document this? On a quick read of several sources, it looks like Constantine did not suppress paganism or forcibly convert pagans to Christianity. Are you thinking of Charlemagne?

Ernie wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 6:17 pm 8. The result was a unification of church and state—a move that would be the catalyst to the egregious abuses that took place over the next 1,500 years during what has come to be known as the Dark Ages.

I think unification of church and state was the norm well before Constantine, throughout the Ancient Near East, and perhaps throughout most of history.

I also think "the Dark Ages" is unfair to the middle ages. C.S. Lewis wrote a book called "The Discarded Image" that goes into this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Discarded_Image

The Great Courses has a long audio series on philosophy that also goes into the Middle Ages in some depth. I think it was Renaissance thinkers who called it the Dark Ages, but a lot of modern scholars think we have to take these Renaissance thinkers with a grain of salt.