Sudsy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 14, 2024 3:50 pmIt is interesting at all the variations of this practice even within Anabaptism. And then there is the whole issue of whether this is a sacrament or an ordinance. Sacrament often considered a means of God's grace as a blessing, salvation or sanctification. Ordinance usually means it is not a conduit of grace but rather an act of obedience. However, some use these terms interchangeably.
I remember once when I referred to this practice in the MB church as a sacrament and quickly was corrected by the pastor that this was an ordinance and not a sacrament. He seemed to be very strong on there being no salvation properties in this practice.
Ordinances are also sometimes referred to as "emblems" along various Anabaptist groups. From what I can find, Ulrich Zwingli seems to have been responsible in large part for the expression, and firm establishment, of this "memorial view" (of the eucharist) among Anabaptists.
Re: Questions about Communion / Lord's Supper
Posted: Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:37 pm
by Ernie
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:37 amI’m saying something is happening in the spiritual world, I suspect that mere human words cannot explain it. I don’t know that I agree with real presence and I also don’t know that I disagree with it.
I'm fine with people arriving at different conclusions in their own mind. What I do have a problem with is people who try to nail down a particular view whenever God didn't think it was necessary to provide further explanation in the scriptures. Jesus said, "Take eat this is my body. This do in remembrance of me." There are other scriptures. Let's focus on what is said and let it at that... Not focus on what is not said.
Whatever happens, is what actually happens, regardless of what I or anybody else thinks happens.
Soloist wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 8:37 amI’m saying something is happening in the spiritual world, I suspect that mere human words cannot explain it. I don’t know that I agree with real presence and I also don’t know that I disagree with it.
I'm fine with people arriving at different conclusions in their own mind. What I do have a problem with is people who try to nail down a particular view whenever God didn't think it was necessary to provide further explanation in the scriptures. Jesus said, "Take eat this is my body. This do in remembrance of me." There are other scriptures. Let's focus on what is said and let it at that... Not focus on what is not said.
Whatever happens, is what actually happens, regardless of what I or anybody else thinks happens.
Indeed. I suspect we shall all be surprised about what we shall learn in the afterlife.
Valerie wrote: ↑Fri Mar 15, 2024 5:47 am
In Davids book he said ";The Latish speaking church referred to baptism and communion as "sacraments". The Greek speaking church referred to these same rites as "mysteries".
Interestingly, Catholic scholars use the terms sacraments and mysteries interchangeably. The term Mysteries is often used to describe the mechanism of action of the sacraments and the two terms are thus interchangeable in Catholic lexicon.
Are they interchangeable? My understanding is sacraments are clearly defined things.
"Sacrament" and "Mystery" are basically the same word. The former is derived from the Latin while the latter is derived from the Greek.
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As for the question of the Eucharist and Christ's presence in it, I'd say that we in the Orthodox Church 'symbolically' eat and drink the body and blood of Christ; but by 'symbolically', I mean that it is a point where material reality meets immaterial reality. In other words, I do not accept the idea that "this is a symbol" means that it is not real. Christ is literally present in the Eucharist and that is real because what is real is not just the material reality.
I would suggest, then, that the issue is less whether or not the Eucharist is physically Christ's body and blood, but rather what the words "symbol" and "remembrance" mean.
Re: Communion as a Sacrament
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2024 1:03 am
by gcdonner
Jump to the 14:40 minute mark in the video. This is only part of the sermon that has been edited for posting on Facebook. The first part deals with "baptism", the second part addresses communion.
This is from a recent sermon that I preached on "Channels of Grace" that y'all may find interesting in regards to this question.