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Doesn't holy mean "set apart". Once it's no longer set apart for a specific task, it's no longer set apart.

barnhart wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 9:32 am Doesn't holy mean "set apart". Once it's no longer set apart for a specific task, it's no longer set apart.

Yes, that is what we would say, and logic dictates.

However there are some here that are saying otherwise.

Judas Maccabeus wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 8:17 am About the building, it was the understanding of the black church that bought the building that it had been fully “deconcreated” and they could use it as they would like. It had a “flying “ pulpit that we removed, since it got in the way of the use that it was purchased for. We were pulling wires for a sound system, and did not want to cut and drill any more than we had to. The previously mentioned pipe? We cut off the hopper at the top, and the pipe that lead into the ground, and used is our main cable conduit to the undercroft.

Is there some sort of procedure where a building can be declared free of “holy things.” After all, the building is sold “in entirety “ and the new owners do have a right to convert it to their new use, which likely differs from yours.

In other words, “holiness “ of an inanimate object like a building has to stop sometime if you are going to sell something?

I agree, and I also think that the tendency or draw we feel toward consideration of physical things being somehow holy is the same element of human nature that leads to (pagan) idol worship. It is a part of our fallen nature. Sure, we do not want the building where we worshiped God, maybe the place where we first felt the presence of God, and where we surrendered to Him - we do not want to see that place "desecrated" by its use as something base, or even just mundane (such as like as a granary). But the followers of Jesus are the parts that make up the Congregation of God - the Church. Holiness must live in US. We are not dependent on that building, no matter how much it draws us.

I'm gonna have to take several steps back to understand where y'all are coming from. For the sake of simplicity, let's use the definition of "set apart" for holiness. That is an acceptable definition. I'd like to know if y'all think physical things can't be holy. And if so, why or why not?

Coifi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:17 pm I'm gonna have to take several steps back to understand where y'all are coming from. For the sake of simplicity, let's use the definition of "set apart" for holiness. That is an acceptable definition. I'd like to know if y'all think physical things can't be holy. And if so, why or why not?

I'll take a crack at it but it may not be that clear -

Yes I think physical things can be referred to as holy such as the Holy Bible. But we don't worship the Holy Bible, the book, but rather the one we believe is it's author and the writings in the Bible sets it apart from all other books. In Exodus 3:5 we read where the ground was holy - “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” But it wasn't that the ground itself was holy but the presence of God that made this ground holy. When the presence of God was not there it was just ground, dirt.

In the NT our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit. God dwells in us. That is what makes us holy, set apart from those who do not have God dwelling in them. Since we are set apart unto God, holy, we are to walk in this holiness. In other words our behaviour should reflect God's ways of holiness. But this holiness, being set apart, I believe has some varying understandings. Being set apart does not mean being isolated or Jesus then was not holy. There is a set apartness that is very much, in another sense, being very much a part. Being set apart unto God is also being very engaged with those not yet set apart.

Regarding physical things in themselves they are not holy but they become set apart when the presence of God is there through believers being there. Abandoned church buildings may be set apart physically but no longer unto God. They are just buildings.

Now if that is not confusing enough then I don't know what is. It is my current explanation.

Coifi wrote: ↑Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:17 pm I'm gonna have to take several steps back to understand where y'all are coming from. For the sake of simplicity, let's use the definition of "set apart" for holiness. That is an acceptable definition. I'd like to know if y'all think physical things can't be holy. And if so, why or why not?

We do not regard material objects as being permanently holy. They are only holy while they are being put to a holy use. When that use is over, they are no longer holy.

Issue may come up more and more as the shrinking and bankrupt Catholic Church unloads buildings. Since they are in bankruptcy court, many of these will go up for auction. I am just hopeful that they remove anything that may be offensive if we do not handle them accordingly to there specifications. After it is sold to us, my take is that anything left is ours to dispose or use as we choose.

There is a large Catholic school complex near us. Now for the right price, it might make a dandy high school. But I guess I should not dream out loud. I teach middle school now, but would enjoy trying high school. We just do not have one.

We don't have any doctrine about holy spaces but our practice says we do not believe our meeting space to be holy, it gets used as an overflow classroom for school, indoor play area for school in inclement weather, dinning hall for special events and on occasion it gets used by community groups for meetings. This likely descends from the time when we didn't have a fixed meeting place and used whatever was available like the YMCA or the basement of the Methodist Church.

I agree with Neto, the gathering is holy, not the walls and roof.

barnhart wrote: ↑Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:02 am We don't have any doctrine about holy spaces but our practice says we do not believe our meeting space to be holy, it gets used as an overflow classroom for school, indoor play area for school in inclement weather, dinning hall for special events and on occasion it gets used by community groups for meetings. This likely descends from the time when we didn't have a fixed meeting place and used whatever was available like the YMCA or the basement of the Methodist Church.

I agree with Neto, the gathering is holy, not the walls and roof.

Half of our sanctuary is indeed mu classroom during the week.

I was sent this link to an excellent explanation of the Epiklesis and Consecration portions of the Mass. It is part of a teaching series called "The Mass in Slow Motion." Hopefully it helps with the questions regarding Roman Catholic Church teachings and usage regarding Holy Communion.
Personal notes:

• I found turning on the CC function helped me to understand his speech better.
• When he uses the phrase "there is a lot of 'inside baseball'" he is referring to the theological debates that are an ongoing part of Church history.
• This priest also prays the Byzantine Mass liturgy at his parish.

I will remind here, that John is the OP, and that this is outside of the catholic "safe space."

Wow. You just confirmed all of the reasons I left and shook the dust off of my feet. SO someone dresses in a ridiculous costume, does a particular set of motions, says the magic words, and than...........

Nothing about this sort of stuff in the Bible. I doubt Peter had anything like this, nor the Apostles in the catacombs, this is all a Medieval invention, designed to impress. It simply rests on church tradition, which are the doctrines of men, or more likely of demons. That from the fact that they did, and continue to persecute the saints, and shield offenders from justice.

Here is an alternative history you might consider:

https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=74&ue=d

I think he is onto something here.