Questions about Communion / Lord's Supper

[MaxPC]

In a Catholic Church taken over by a black holiness group (my friends and I were installing a sound system with spare parts) there was a hopper, kinda like a funnel that led to the ground below the alter. One of my friends (Also an ex-catholic) was a former alter boy, and said this was for disposing of surplus wine.

The building used for the Bible college where I graduated had previously been a Jesuit Seminary, and there was one of those special sinks behind the main chapel area. The stone tables in the prayer rooms had places where you could see that something had been broken off of them. The confessionals had been converted into telephone booths.....

Some details: The special sink that drains directly to the ground underneath the church building is called a sacrarium. Everything that proceeds is related to our belief that it is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

When the Precious Blood is accidentally spilled it is cleaned up with a linen cloth called a purificator; if a Host is dropped it is retrieved and put into a bowl of water to dissolve. The purificator that was used to clean up the Precious Blood is soaked in water in a similar bowl. The water from these bowls is then poured into the sacrarium.

When the priest pours about 10 ml of wine into the chalice he will also pour in an approximately similar amount of water: this represents the blood and water that flowed from Christ’s side on the Cross. Any residual Precious Blood in the chalice is consumed by the priest and the cup is thoroughly wiped dry with a purificator. This purificator is soaked in water and the water poured into sacrarium. The purificators are always soaked before being washed and ironed..

[Neto]

In a Catholic Church taken over by a black holiness group (my friends and I were installing a sound system with spare parts) there was a hopper, kinda like a funnel that led to the ground below the alter. One of my friends (Also an ex-catholic) was a former alter boy, and said this was for disposing of surplus wine.

The building used for the Bible college where I graduated had previously been a Jesuit Seminary, and there was one of those special sinks behind the main chapel area. The stone tables in the prayer rooms had places where you could see that something had been broken off of them. The confessionals had been converted into telephone booths.....

Some details: The special sink that drains directly to the ground underneath the church building is called a sacrarium. Everything that proceeds is related to our belief that it is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

When the Precious Blood is accidentally spilled it is cleaned up with a linen cloth called a purificator; if a Host is dropped it is retrieved and put into a bowl of water to dissolve. The purificator that was used to clean up the Precious Blood is soaked in water in a similar bowl. The water from these bowls is then poured into the sacrarium.

When the priest pours about 10 ml of wine into the chalice he will also pour in an approximately similar amount of water: this represents the blood and water that flowed from Christ’s side on the Cross. Any residual Precious Blood in the chalice is consumed by the priest and the cup is thoroughly wiped dry with a purificator. This purificator is soaked in water and the water poured into sacrarium. The purificators are always soaked before being washed and ironed..

This is just a curiosity on my part, but I'm reminded of how, when our MB congregation back home decided to replace the original church house with a new, larger one, the question came up of what should be done with the old one. It had a raked floor in the meeting area, so it would have been expensive to level the floor and divide it up into classrooms. (The basement also had some serious water issues, so that was a major consideration as well. I knew that full well, because I had been the janitor while I was in HS.) Another party offered to purchase and move the building off of the property, to be used as a wedding chapel. Too much detail here already - the point is that the "winning opinion" was that they did not want the building to pass out of our control, to prevent its use as a bar or some other disgraceful purpose.

All of the church houses in Russia were confiscated when the Soviets took over everything, and some of them still stand, having been repurposed as all sorts of things, granaries, businesses, Soviet offices, bars, etc. At the basis of our belief, we do not regard physical things as being in some way "holy", but this tendency does still show up in various forms. (I remember an incident where my Dad gave me a licking, or at least a sever scolding, for 'Disrespecting the House of the Lord'. The new Sunday school wing was under construction, and he caught me climbing out of one of the windows, after having been playing and running around inside. I protested that the building hadn't been dedicated yet, so it wasn't yet "the house of the Lord', but he said it is being built for that purpose, so my "exception" didn't apply. Just for reference sake, I was 11 years old.) Anyway, so the old church house was destroyed.

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

[I hope that my questions here are not disrespectful to you. You must realize that your participation here provides us, as 'anabaptists', a unique opportunity, a peak into what for us is a somewhat "foreign world".]

[Judas Maccabeus]

The building used for the Bible college where I graduated had previously been a Jesuit Seminary, and there was one of those special sinks behind the main chapel area. The stone tables in the prayer rooms had places where you could see that something had been broken off of them. The confessionals had been converted into telephone booths.....

Some details: The special sink that drains directly to the ground underneath the church building is called a sacrarium. Everything that proceeds is related to our belief that it is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

When the Precious Blood is accidentally spilled it is cleaned up with a linen cloth called a purificator; if a Host is dropped it is retrieved and put into a bowl of water to dissolve. The purificator that was used to clean up the Precious Blood is soaked in water in a similar bowl. The water from these bowls is then poured into the sacrarium.

When the priest pours about 10 ml of wine into the chalice he will also pour in an approximately similar amount of water: this represents the blood and water that flowed from Christ’s side on the Cross. Any residual Precious Blood in the chalice is consumed by the priest and the cup is thoroughly wiped dry with a purificator. This purificator is soaked in water and the water poured into sacrarium. The purificators are always soaked before being washed and ironed..

This is just a curiosity on my part, but I'm reminded of how, when our MB congregation back home decided to replace the original church house with a new, larger one, the question came up of what should be done with the old one. It had a raked floor in the meeting area, so it would have been expensive to level the floor and divide it up into classrooms. (The basement also had some serious water issues, so that was a major consideration as well. I knew that full well, because I had been the janitor while I was in HS.) Another party offered to purchase and move the building off of the property, to be used as a wedding chapel. Too much detail here already - the point is that the "winning opinion" was that they did not want the building to pass out of our control, to prevent its use as a bar or some other disgraceful purpose.

All of the church houses in Russia were confiscated when the Soviets took over everything, and some of them still stand, having been repurposed as all sorts of things, granaries, businesses, Soviet offices, bars, etc. At the basis of our belief, we do not regard physical things as being in some way "holy", but this tendency does still show up in various forms. (I remember an incident where my Dad gave me a licking, or at least a sever scolding, for 'Disrespecting the House of the Lord'. The new Sunday school wing was under construction, and he caught me climbing out of one of the windows, after having been playing and running around inside. I protested that the building hadn't been dedicated yet, so it wasn't yet "the house of the Lord', but he said it is being built for that purpose, so my "exception" didn't apply. Just for reference sake, I was 11 years old.) Anyway, so the old church house was destroyed.

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

[I hope that my questions here are not disrespectful to you. You must realize that your participation here provides us, as 'anabaptists', a unique opportunity, a peak into what for us is a somewhat "foreign world".]

I do know that there was no specific “conditions “ on the use or disposal of that building. It has since been torn down.

[Neto]

Some details: The special sink that drains directly to the ground underneath the church building is called a sacrarium. Everything that proceeds is related to our belief that it is the Body and Blood of Christ under the appearance of bread and wine.

When the Precious Blood is accidentally spilled it is cleaned up with a linen cloth called a purificator; if a Host is dropped it is retrieved and put into a bowl of water to dissolve. The purificator that was used to clean up the Precious Blood is soaked in water in a similar bowl. The water from these bowls is then poured into the sacrarium.

When the priest pours about 10 ml of wine into the chalice he will also pour in an approximately similar amount of water: this represents the blood and water that flowed from Christ’s side on the Cross. Any residual Precious Blood in the chalice is consumed by the priest and the cup is thoroughly wiped dry with a purificator. This purificator is soaked in water and the water poured into sacrarium. The purificators are always soaked before being washed and ironed..

This is just a curiosity on my part, but I'm reminded of how, when our MB congregation back home decided to replace the original church house with a new, larger one, the question came up of what should be done with the old one. It had a raked floor in the meeting area, so it would have been expensive to level the floor and divide it up into classrooms. (The basement also had some serious water issues, so that was a major consideration as well. I knew that full well, because I had been the janitor while I was in HS.) Another party offered to purchase and move the building off of the property, to be used as a wedding chapel. Too much detail here already - the point is that the "winning opinion" was that they did not want the building to pass out of our control, to prevent its use as a bar or some other disgraceful purpose.

All of the church houses in Russia were confiscated when the Soviets took over everything, and some of them still stand, having been repurposed as all sorts of things, granaries, businesses, Soviet offices, bars, etc. At the basis of our belief, we do not regard physical things as being in some way "holy", but this tendency does still show up in various forms. (I remember an incident where my Dad gave me a licking, or at least a sever scolding, for 'Disrespecting the House of the Lord'. The new Sunday school wing was under construction, and he caught me climbing out of one of the windows, after having been playing and running around inside. I protested that the building hadn't been dedicated yet, so it wasn't yet "the house of the Lord', but he said it is being built for that purpose, so my "exception" didn't apply. Just for reference sake, I was 11 years old.) Anyway, so the old church house was destroyed.

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

[I hope that my questions here are not disrespectful to you. You must realize that your participation here provides us, as 'anabaptists', a unique opportunity, a peak into what for us is a somewhat "foreign world".]

I do know that there was no specific “conditions “ on the use or disposal of that building. It has since been torn down.

Which building are you referring to? A Catholic cathedral?

[MaxPC]

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

[I hope that my questions here are not disrespectful to you. You must realize that your participation here provides us, as 'anabaptists', a unique opportunity, a peak into what for us is a somewhat "foreign world".]

Neto, you have always shown respect for the dignity of myself and others. Your questions are excellent as you offer them in humble outreach. I hope to be able to provide a clear explanation but, if it is still a bit fuzzy, feel free to ask for clarification.

What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"?
You are asking the same excellent questions as the theologians through the centuries. I shall do my best to answer from the current teaching of the RCC.

I believe the key point is to avoid desecration of the consecrated species (Host and Precious Blood). As the RCC views it, water is created by God as is soil: they are the only acceptable dilutionary agents for consecrated species with the application of water being the primary agent.

The soil underneath a church foundation is protected by that foundation from overt human activity that could possibly desecrate the diluted elements which with time, will degrade further. When the water reaches that soil, the dilution of the molecular structure of the species rinsed in it is considered complete. Putting the water into a normal sink or toilet will mix it with sewerage which is considered unacceptable.

If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?
After the passage of time and the already diluted nature of the species, generally speaking the answer is no. Now here is where the theologians get into it: if it is an older church, it may be decided to remove the earth under the sacrarium and put it into the foundation of the new building. Each situation is considered by its individual variables.

There have been those times when a church has been destroyed by fire. If that is the case, the relics within the altar are retrieved insofar as they are retrievable. Likewise the Tabernacle that is the receptacle for extra consecrated Hosts. The soil underneath that is touched by fire is not removed: it has already been cleansed by fire. Fire is considered a cleansing agent.

A modern example of a church fire is the Cathedral of Notre Dame in Parish. The roof caught fire and those ancient roof support timbers were kindling. When the fire started, the priests went into the sanctuary and retrieved the extra Hosts while others retrieved reliquaries and other blessed items. Everything else was at the mercy of God including those lovely stained windows. The fire was intense, even melting the lead shingles. Blessedly the Cathedral was not a complete loss and the repairs are nearing completion. That Cathedral has stood through almost 800 years of human history and is quite meaningful to the French, both young and old.

[Josh]

In our circles surplus grape juice either goes down the sink, or else sneaky children grab a swig and finish it off.

The sink goes to a septic tank which then eventually flows into the soil. So it is effectively just like the “funnel” Neto described.

[Judas Maccabeus]

This is just a curiosity on my part, but I'm reminded of how, when our MB congregation back home decided to replace the original church house with a new, larger one, the question came up of what should be done with the old one. It had a raked floor in the meeting area, so it would have been expensive to level the floor and divide it up into classrooms. (The basement also had some serious water issues, so that was a major consideration as well. I knew that full well, because I had been the janitor while I was in HS.) Another party offered to purchase and move the building off of the property, to be used as a wedding chapel. Too much detail here already - the point is that the "winning opinion" was that they did not want the building to pass out of our control, to prevent its use as a bar or some other disgraceful purpose.

All of the church houses in Russia were confiscated when the Soviets took over everything, and some of them still stand, having been repurposed as all sorts of things, granaries, businesses, Soviet offices, bars, etc. At the basis of our belief, we do not regard physical things as being in some way "holy", but this tendency does still show up in various forms. (I remember an incident where my Dad gave me a licking, or at least a sever scolding, for 'Disrespecting the House of the Lord'. The new Sunday school wing was under construction, and he caught me climbing out of one of the windows, after having been playing and running around inside. I protested that the building hadn't been dedicated yet, so it wasn't yet "the house of the Lord', but he said it is being built for that purpose, so my "exception" didn't apply. Just for reference sake, I was 11 years old.) Anyway, so the old church house was destroyed.

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

[I hope that my questions here are not disrespectful to you. You must realize that your participation here provides us, as 'anabaptists', a unique opportunity, a peak into what for us is a somewhat "foreign world".]

I do know that there was no specific “conditions “ on the use or disposal of that building. It has since been torn down.

Which building are you referring to? A Catholic cathedral?

No, just a large, regular Catholic Church built by German immigrant in my fair city. Name of the pastor got some snickers from time to time. Rev. Carl Pagan. Had connections to us from Washington Bible College/Capitol Bible Seminary. Good man, since retired. This would have been the 90s.
Pages.

[Judas Maccabeus]

In our circles surplus grape juice either goes down the sink, or else sneaky children grab a swig and finish it off.

The sink goes to a septic tank which then eventually flows into the soil. So it is effectively just like the “funnel” Neto described.

For about the past 6-7 years I have been baking the bread, use recipe for middle eastern flatbread.

I guess it is a good one, because some of the young children finish off the surplus, better there than in the trash. (Mennonite frugality)

[Coifi]

So my question comes back to "things that are holy". What of the earth that has absorbed all of that "Precious Blood" (as you call it) - Is it in some way holy? I'm wondering "where it stops". At what point can you regard something that was holy as being 'common"? If a Catholic "church house" is torn down, does that earth under the sacrarium need to be treated in a certain way?

I'd like to throw in my two cents here. Though, in my experience, all of the elements are consumed during the Divine Liturgy. None of it is poured out.
---------------------------------
In a certain sense, all of creation is holy. That being said, there are particular persons, places, and things where the actions of God are particularly evident. Therefore, we should take special care to honor them.

One of these things where God's actions are particularly evident is in the Eucharist - in which we truly experience Christ. Because we truly experience Christ in the elements, we treat them in a manner fitting to Christ's body and blood. I think an acceptable analogy here would be how one treats the body of a deceased loved one. In particular, it is commonly considered disrespectful to tread on a grave. Similarly, if I were to dispose of the elements on the ground, I would do it in such a place where it would not be stepped on.

To ask "where the holiness stops" is like asking when water becomes hot. Sure, you can say that water becomes hot when it reaches boiling point, but saying, then, that water must be cold at 210ºF would be absurd. The categories 'hot' and 'cold' are experiential categories not scientific ones; attempting to give them scientific meaning is arbitrary. However, that certainly doesn't mean that hot and cold are not real phenomenon.

Similarly, holiness is not a scientific category and should therefore not be treated as such.

[Judas Maccabeus]

About the building, it was the understanding of the black church that bought the building that it had been fully “deconcreated” and they could use it as they would like. It had a “flying “ pulpit that we removed, since it got in the way of the use that it was purchased for. We were pulling wires for a sound system, and did not want to cut and drill any more than we had to. The previously mentioned pipe? We cut off the hopper at the top, and the pipe that lead into the ground, and used is our main cable conduit to the undercroft.

Is there some sort of procedure where a building can be declared free of “holy things.” After all, the building is sold “in entirety “ and the new owners do have a right to convert it to their new use, which likely differs from yours.

In other words, “holiness “ of an inanimate object like a building has to stop sometime if you are going to sell something?