Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by temporal1 »

PeterG wrote:If the government shouldn't be trusted to provide healthcare or work to end poverty, it certainly shouldn't be trusted to teach the Bible.
it's unhealthy, not logical, for the Bible to be the one exclusion.
because i believe the Holy Spirit determines outcomes, i'm ok with "not ignoring" the Bible in public schools. either way, schools do not control the Holy Spirit.

how strange children must find it when they realize how the Bible has out-sold all other books by miles, yet it was ignored in their public school education?! i wonder about this. "bizarre" comes to mind. talk about the "elephant in the living room." :P

but, no, i do not trust government with teaching - anything. not anymore.
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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temporal1 wrote:
PeterG wrote:If the government shouldn't be trusted to provide healthcare or work to end poverty, it certainly shouldn't be trusted to teach the Bible.
it's unhealthy, not logical, for the Bible to be the one exclusion.
because i believe the Holy Spirit determines outcomes, i'm ok with "not ignoring" the Bible in public schools. either way, schools do not control the Holy Spirit.

how strange children must find it when they realize how the Bible has out-sold all other books by miles, yet it was ignored in their public school education?! i wonder about this. "bizarre" comes to mind. talk about the "elephant in the living room." :P

but, no, i do not trust government with teaching - anything. not anymore.
i forgot to add the link about the Vashti McCollum case on the former page:
https://bjconline.org/on-this-day-in-ch ... e-history/
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by Josh »

Maybe this is a good question to ask:

What do you trust government to do?
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Josh wrote:Maybe this is a good question to ask:
What do you trust government to do?
that is a good question. :)
from what i've read, the founders warned about politicians, lawyers, too much government, and more. they warned, "take care of what we've designed, or lose it." i believe that to mean they were well aware of human frailty, and, "how things work," with corruption, lack of balance, and more.

they knew their history! and there was plenty to draw on.
including the history of Jesus and Christianity.
that must have been some group to be part of.

what unfolded?
lots of good things, and lots of bad things. the temporal world.

but, just as Jesus warned about not sleeping, and the founders warned to remain vigilant, to not take things for granted .. what happened? .. most slept, including me.
so, now, the price has come due.

we aren't supposed to take things for granted, we are to be vigilant.
trusting government is, at worst, the lazy man's way.

so, the question becomes, "what is the Christian's responsibility?"
here i miss MD. on MD, lesterb gave me a response i was still studying, it's gone. :(

my frequent analogy/question was,
"if the barn roof is in need of repair, does a Christian replace it? or, leave it for God to mend?"
another question was,
"if Christians are to render to Caesar that which is Caesar's,"
then, if we live in a country designed to rely on the citizenry's guidance, are we remiss to refuse to guide? (which could be offering opinions, even voting.)

so, a more succinct response to your question would be:
i don't trust earthly governments, and, i don't believe i'm supposed to. :)

this is not to say anarchy is ok, it's not. it's not to say it's ok to not pay taxes or respect laws.
somehow, there must be a balance of respectful mistrust.
otherwise, there is lack of vigilance, or laziness, which we are warned against, all the way to "the worst," worship of government as a false god. which is presently 'way too prevalent.

life on earth must be dealt with. we don't have the privilege of heaven on earth.
there are some wonderful examples of different people in scriptures who managed the balance very well. these are good role models. Boaz is one of my favs. some are able to fully worship God, while also living a responsible earthly life. i suppose i see this as the best goal for temporal life.

i am thankful to be able to say, i've known different ones in my real life who manage the balance as Boaz did. some are on this forum. male and female. i have great respect for these, they are real-time encouragers for others around them.

good question.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by Josh »

"Take care of what we made"

Like taking care of the institution of slavery? No thanks. Talk about government overreach...
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Josh wrote:"Take care of what we made"
Like taking care of the institution of slavery? No thanks. Talk about government overreach...
while i was looking forward to a possible reply from you, what you chose to post strikes me as silly, if not irresponsible. that's ok. i accept your thoughts. you cause me to think.

there is no government that approaches flawlessness, yet, scriptures tell us we will have earthly governments, and they serve a purpose in God's design.

i don't believe the founders felt they were perfect, nor do i believe they had any idea what would unfold over time .. except, they did warn about the certainty of human frailty and corruption, esp corruption in government! in the amount of time they had at hand, combined with the intense stress they were under, it's amazing they did as well as they did in structuring a new government, they hoped a better one .. and, loads of people have benefited from it. loads of people sacrificed to come here to escape: worse.

Monday morning quarterbacking can be a fun hobby.
no way i could have approached what these guys came up with, even without stress, and, given "all the time in the world." keeping this in mind, i tend to look at history from a more humble view, rather than a critical view.

in general, when i read history, i keep in mind,
"in their shoes, i likely would not have done as well!" :shock:
for me, history is humbling, even the dark parts. i never presume to be better-than. i'm too afraid i might not have been as good. :-|

you mention slavery, in particular.
slavery was not a construct of the New World. to my understanding, it has existed on all continents, for all time.

one thing i wonder about, i have no conclusions:
in all of history, did any culture or country ever experiment with attempting to formally mitigate damages caused by a prior history of slavery (as the U.S. gov experiments with?) if so, i'm not aware.

i recently read that Quakers were taken as slaves into northern Africa, 1600-1700's (?)
news to me. but, knowing that slavery "has always been," i don't deny it, am not overly surprised by it.

i think Helen Keller got it right:
There is no king who has not had a slave among his ancestors,
and no slave who has not had a king among his.
Helen Keller

Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quot ... 95654.html
in any event, scriptures address slavery.
i believe scriptures do a better job of addressing slavery than government's attempt, which has become a major gov-sponsored industry, it has created great wealth for some, with legal language that has hijacked the attempt far beyond original intent for purposes not related, abusing taxpayer funds beyond imagination. those who profit will do all possible to make sure the industry does not end.

a different sort of slavery? :? Jesus claims He is The Way. even for slaves. :)
there is evidence He is correct. we are afraid to trust.

i do wonder how things might be today, had the sins and injustices of actual slavery been addressed from a scriptural view rather than from a "government as god" view. wouldn't God have provided? He did in other former cases in history. He says He will provide .. ??

my questions will likely never be answered. not on this earth.
with certainty, God knows.
the rest of us can't wait for Him. so, we turn to government. it's faster. :-|

thank you for taking the time to reply. you caused me to think. :)
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Joy
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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When I see someone wearing an "American slavery--never forget" T-shirt, it makes me wonder how much thought they give to present day slaves, many of whom, I would guess, are treated much worse than America's, on the average.

CNN reports a study showing 35.8 million slaves worldwide, in every one of the 167 countries surveyed. The highest percentage was in Mauritania, the eleventh largest country in Africa, with 4% of its population in bondage.

A subject truly worthy of daily prayers.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Joy wrote:When I see someone wearing an "American slavery--never forget" T-shirt, it makes me wonder how much thought they give to present day slaves, many of whom, I would guess, are treated much worse than America's, on the average.

CNN reports a study showing 35.8 million slaves worldwide, in every one of the 167 countries surveyed. The highest percentage was in Mauritania, the eleventh largest country in Africa, with 4% of its population in bondage.

A subject truly worthy of daily prayers.
It's certainly worth remembering and considering and even seeing where we are complicit in modern-day slavery, but that in no way excuses pretending that slavery wasn't part of America's founding and completely condoned and tolerated by America's government during its first century of independence.

It amazes me how many people want to just brush that away. A government which endorses and promotes chattels slavery and the trans-Atlantic slave trade is, by definition, evil.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Josh, I trust you are not suggesting I have brushed off the issue of slavery in American history. A few years ago I personally apologized to a black Sunday School class for the issue of American slavery. I have spent a large portion of my life ministering to the descendants of slaves, as my parents did, even to the point of death threats to our face.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Joy wrote:Josh, I trust you are not suggesting I have brushed off the issue of slavery in American history. A few years ago I personally apologized to a black Sunday School class for the issue of American slavery. I have spent a large portion of my life ministering to the descendants of slaves, as my parents did, even to the point of death threats to our face.

It's not something I need to personally apologise for; however, it is something that should refute any idea that America is a "Christian" nation founded on "Christian" principles. The Constitution is not the kingdom of heaven but is in fact the opposite of it.
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