Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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temporal1
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Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by temporal1 »

Just read this, happening in Kentucky.
https://religionnews.com/2017/07/07/ken ... 3408101968

it's written from a critical pov, i believe, and hope, unnecessarily critical.

i do not see how children can have any sort of balanced education while ignoring the Bible, and its history. for me, it's demanding/mandating deliberate ignorance. that ignorance is displayed daily on the world stage. there certainly is room for improvement.

i don't see the necessity of using the word, "shrewd," for a governor to use existing law (law that many-most are aware of, regardless of what this author writes) to expand public school education - through an elective course.
"Christian nationalist agenda," is, also, rather heavy-handed language.

i'm interested in learning more about this in Kentucky. weeding through the criticism, it sounds reasonable. i am weary of deliberate ignorance as a national policy. :-|

i do understand the threat, tho.
when children are given balanced information, they just might use it.
.. But what many fail to recognize is that Abington v. Schempp did not completely remove the Bible from schools. Consider Supreme Court Justice Tom Clark’s majority opinion:

“It might well be said that one’s education is not complete without the study of comparative religion or the history of religion and its relationship to the advancement of civilization. It certainly may be said that the Bible is worthy of study for its religious and historic qualities. Nothing we have said here indicates that such study of the Bible or of religion, when presented objectively as part of a secular program of education, may not be effected consistent with the First Amendment.”
thoughts?
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JimFoxvog
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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I think Justice Clark's judgement is reasonable.
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Josh
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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I'm pretty wary of Bible based education in American public schools. Chances are it will NOT be from a Mennonite / Anabaptist perspective but will instead be promoting something more Calvinist or maybe Baptist.
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by temporal1 »

Josh wrote:I'm pretty wary of Bible based education in American public schools. Chances are it will NOT be from a Mennonite / Anabaptist perspective but will instead be promoting something more Calvinist or maybe Baptist.
This is not a reference to Bible based public school education. :)

True, the U.S., nor any country in the world, has an Anabaptist state religion; :P
i'm not even certain that Anabaptists would be mentioned in such elective courses as described above. i would hope so, or, at least, a mention of CO's included as Christians.

i'm not sure if a historical-academic study would default to a Calvinist-Baptist perspective (??) .. possibly, dependent on the instructor (??) .. this is not a suggestion to hold Sunday school classes in public schools.

in any case, for scriptures to come alive as faith and Light, is a gift of the Holy Spirit, which can't be contained or controlled, in a public classroom, or in any Bible study. we can pray for the Holy Spirit, pray to receive it, but we can't control it.

my interest in this is to balance what has been happening, the "draconian" removal of any reference to scriptures, as-if that will erase God's Truth. that just seems very silly, and beneath the intelligence level of any average person. it's a disservice to children's general education.

to be Bible-literate is one thing. it's a basic beginning.
to be a believer, a follower of the way of Jesus, is another, this is the work of the Holy Spirit.

my interest is to introduce scriptures to deserving children; i believe they are deserving. this is little enough for them. the Holy Spirit will determine their paths.

i suppose, as Christians, i feel we have responsibilities, esp to share the Word.
however, we cannot take credit or blame for outcomes. we can go so far, the Holy Spirit works as God's Will for outcomes.

i see no logic in public schools continuing to treat the Bible as if it were a banned book, or worse.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by Josh »

Schools I have been around to do not treat the Bible as a "banned book" and include discussing it when they survey world religions.

How would you feel about a public school introducing children to the Koran?
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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Josh wrote:Schools I have been around to do not treat the Bible as a "banned book" and include discussing it when they survey world religions.

How would you feel about a public school introducing children to the Koran?
Yes, knowing the basic content and structure of the Bible and Koran should be part of general education. A public school should not be promoting any specific religion, but knowledge of religion and its role in society is important.
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by temporal1 »

Josh:
Schools I have been around to do not treat the Bible as a "banned book" and include discussing it when they survey world religions.
why wouldn't they? it's legal to do so. just as this KY governor is proposing, or has enacted, an elective course, that is also legal.

btw, the author of this piece writes from a critical, disrespectful pov, reflecting the general "popular" opinion.
perhaps i should have looked for another source. i have not read from this source before.
i saw it, found the topic interesting IN SPITE OF the author, wondered if others had thoughts on it.
this forum has/has had members who are in KY.

however, what i see happening in schools near me, in liberal states, is education that includes study-romanticizing of mythology, Eastern religions, Native American beliefs+customs, etc., to the exclusion of the Bible, which i do not appreciate. this is not balanced education.

further, i read, hear, view, incredible animosity toward all-things-Christian in the mainstream, by those "products of lib government schools," these folks embrace anything-but Christianity, with little evidence they've had any exposure, at all.

i, also, recall that trend beginning when i was in school in the 60's-70's, the general belittling of all things Christian, esp by the "cool" teachers, who were like pied pipers for young people, naive and seeking leadership.

i'm not questioning your experience.
your experience is as valid as mine. but not more valid. :)
Josh:
How would you feel about a public school introducing children to the Koran?
from what i read, this is happening, and, a whole lot more. it increases my interest in providing balance, as this KY governor is promoting.

if public schools are not going to teach in balance, then, they earn the label of "indoctrination centers." this, on all topics, not just religion/the Bible.

in my view, entities that rely on the public treasury for funding (everyone's combined tax dollars) should not be permitted to participate in partisan politics, or, in schools, "partisan" study of religion; this would include public schools, but also fire departments, police departments, NPR, PP, et al., but not be confined to these groups. abuse of the public treasury to promote partisan politics is widespread, and, wrong.

i have not thought a lot about it, but, churches and faith based schools must be an exception to this, because religion has special provisions in U.S. law. i mention this because i so often read vitriol about tax exemptions for churches.

since learning a bit about Canada's system, which provides more-than tax exemptions for churches+faith based schools (that accept these provisions) i admit to laughing a little when the topic comes up. however, i do not know enough to feel confident in my thoughts.

to these folks who are so outraged about tax exemptions for churches, i have to presume they would, also, not want the public treasury pirated for partisan politics by these other entities.
or, would they?! :o

overall, i sense your questions are often of a "gotcha" nature, rather than an interest in civil discussion.
for that, i am sorry. at some point, i hope for a changed attitude. :)
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Robert
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

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temporal1 wrote:however, what i see happening in schools near me, in liberal states, is education that includes study-romanticizing of mythology, Eastern religions, Native American beliefs+customs, etc., to the exclusion of the Bible, which i do not appreciate. this is not balanced education.
I agree that this happens. I also see an exclusion of the Koran and many of Mohammad's teachings that are very counter to western culture. Thomas Jefferson printed the Koran and sent it to schools to be read so people would know who they were fighting against.

We are very ignorant of Islam and some other religions. Since religion does impact the world so much, I see no reason not to teach ABOUT them in school. I also see no reason to leave out one for another. I also have no desire to have a school teacher proselyte children, but if you open that door, it will happen. With Campus Life JV, we targeted middle school kids in after school programs. Why leave it to the school or some teacher when we could do it ourselves.
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by PeterG »

If the government shouldn't be trusted to provide healthcare or work to end poverty, it certainly shouldn't be trusted to teach the Bible.
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temporal1
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Re: Meanwhile, in Kentucky

Post by temporal1 »

Robert wrote:
temporal1 wrote: however, what i see happening in schools near me, in liberal states, is education that includes study-romanticizing of mythology, Eastern religions, Native American beliefs+customs, etc., to the exclusion of the Bible, which i do not appreciate. this is not balanced education.
I agree that this happens. I also see an exclusion of the Koran and many of Mohammad's teachings that are very counter to western culture. Thomas Jefferson printed the Koran and sent it to schools to be read so people would know who they were fighting against.

We are very ignorant of Islam and some other religions. Since religion does impact the world so much, I see no reason not to teach ABOUT them in school. I also see no reason to leave out one for another. I also have no desire to have a school teacher proselyte children, but if you open that door, it will happen. With Campus Life JV, we targeted middle school kids in after school programs.

:arrow: Why leave it to the school or some teacher when we could do it ourselves.
i was young when the Vashti McCollum case was still effecting removal of all-things-Christian from public schools. i.e., i recall voluntary Bible study offered after school in elementary school, until it wasn't. i don't believe i attended. i was "terrified of the Bible." until 40-something.

strangely, Vashti and family were in my home town. :shock:
i did not meet her, but my older brother was good friends with 2 of her sons.
they were quite a bit older than i. but the younger son was quite engaging, he was warm and friendly (he did not cast me away, like my older brother+most of his friends.) he was an amazing ice skater, and a rink guard. :D

my mother instructed me: "do not allow him to speak of religion, do not ask questions!" :shock:
ok. and, it never came up.
i was not allowed much time with my older sibs, anyway.
in those years, i did not know what was going on in the Supreme Court, etc. none of that.

years passed. Vashti passed, my parents, and my brother. :(
i hear, my friend is still alive+active, he square dances! :mrgreen:
have not spoken with him since my brother died.
never ever spoke to him about religion.

i read, as her life transpired, Vashti softened on her stance. this happens.
these court cases "change everything" for everyone, when time passes, the principles change, the changed laws do NOT change with them.

i tried to find something on her change to share here, found nothing.

The BIG problem.
from my experience, my observations, i believe the BIG problem is the one you stated above, i added the arrow.

my impression is, people took for granted that Christianity would "just naturally" continue, with or without public schools .. the necessity for PARENTS+CHURCHES to pick up the gaping hole was NOT sufficiently recognized.

Early in public education, the Bible was woven all through daily lessons - old school books document this. this changed before my school days. but, i have seen some early school books, in English and German. they used scriptures for reading+writing lessons, and memory work. memory work was valued! morality lessons. that, also, changed by the time i was in school.

it's understandable, when "everyone you know," everywhere you look, you see Christianity, to take it for granted. in my view, families+churches did not sufficiently recognize what would be lost. of course, some children had no religious education at home or in church. i think a lot of this was ignored/overlooked.

today, "everyone" sees atheism everywhere they look. they take it for granted.
there's a pattern of taking things for granted, of falsely believing, if "everyone you know" thinks a certain way, that's how it's going to be.

i see this, esp in young people, who mostly have not experienced great turns of events!
this is a handicap.
anyone who lives long enough will experience it. the temporal nature of life on earth.

i agree with you: teaching religion is the primary responsibility of parents+churches.
interesting, studies continue to reflect, parents have the greatest influence on their children, bar none.

of course, teachers' unions, and political activists/lobbyists do not care for this fact! :evil:

the importance of parents is not discussed, esp not when asking for tax increases, expanded curriculum, etc. (which seems continuously.) it's serious anathema to their interests, which are financially huge.

unfortunately, lots of parents do NOT understand the great impact they have on their children.
they often feel incapable, they are intimidated by schools.
ultimately, they vote for removal of their own parental rights. :(

most of all, tho, it's the Holy Spirit that determines outcomes.
in all matters, we are to seek the Holy Spirit.
Last edited by temporal1 on Mon Jul 10, 2017 12:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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