Lent and Ash Wednesday

[Soloist]

I’m not going to argue with you over something Jay didn’t say and you are assuming.
I’m not disagreeing with you on seeking to change a church.

[Valerie]

Not sure what kind of world y’all live in, but I’ve always seen virtually every business around me open and people working on Good Friday.

I’ve worked every one I can remember, but if I was told by a brother that this brother honored the day and did not work, I would certainly not make a point of telling him I was working then.
Likewise, if there was a recovering alcoholic, I would certainly not tell him if I drank or what I drank.


Now if either of these brothers were going around and making a point to condemn someone who did drink or did work on Good Friday, they would be just as much in the wrong as this person making a point of telling Jay or someone telling an alcoholic what they drank.

I know Mennonites have a phobia against letting a weaker brother “rule” them but in the pursuit of your meat, are you going to hurt your brother?

I really like the way you put this.
We have to be so careful of pride, suspicion, boasting & judging each other.

The parable of the Publican & the Pharisee.

I can totally understand why people honor Good Friday. They should not boast about doing so, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose?

I can't say I understand why a Christian would find it important to not treat it as a Holy Day but certainly it's their choice according to Scripture but again, all that may be in their heart about that may not please the Lord.

[Valerie]

True, but there is a point where “weaker brother “ as a means of requiring others to bend to your ideas of how things ought be done. There are weaker brothers and professional weaker brothers. I have seen both. Only the fellowship can discern which is which.


Hebrews 6:1 ESV - Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

If what he says is true, which obviously we don’t know the other side, but it sounds like the person basically told him it was targeted.

Like they suddenly found a roofing job just in the vicinity of his home that they could do on Good Friday? Really? And they bent their schedule just so they could offend him? I do not buy it.

Sooner or later, probably sooner, a member of a church must know that he cannot force his preference on a body where there are an agreed set of standards. If you are a member of a community, sometimes you need put your preference aside.

Believe what you like, but my suspicion is he wanted the church to bend to his will. If you cannot accept the churches values and standards, you simply should not join. When I was on the cusp of joining my current church, a brother that frequents this board exhorted me not to suggest any changes until I had been a member for at least 5 years, otherwise I likely would be rebuffed because I simply would not be thought to understand the why of the standards in place. I feel that was good advice.

I keep wondering if your past missionary method you've talked about has caused you to always suspect people. You've implied the type of missionary work you did as somewhat deceptive- could it be you may always ascribe this then to others or make you always doubt people? I can see where that may have caused that. Not to say people don't lie or mislead, but You're almost always the suspicious one on the forum

[Judas Maccabeus]

Not sure what kind of world y’all live in, but I’ve always seen virtually every business around me open and people working on Good Friday.

I’ve worked every one I can remember, but if I was told by a brother that this brother honored the day and did not work, I would certainly not make a point of telling him I was working then.
Likewise, if there was a recovering alcoholic, I would certainly not tell him if I drank or what I drank.


Now if either of these brothers were going around and making a point to condemn someone who did drink or did work on Good Friday, they would be just as much in the wrong as this person making a point of telling Jay or someone telling an alcoholic what they drank.

I know Mennonites have a phobia against letting a weaker brother “rule” them but in the pursuit of your meat, are you going to hurt your brother?

I really like the way you put this.
We have to be so careful of pride, suspicion, boasting & judging each other.

The parable of the Publican & the Pharisee.

I can totally understand why people honor Good Friday. They should not boast about doing so, wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose?

I can't say I understand why a Christian would find it important to not treat it as a Holy Day but certainly it's their choice according to Scripture but again, all that may be in their heart about that may not please the Lord.

If you live in a diverse city as do I, you will realize the sheer impossibility of observing everyone’s holidays . We got the Muslims on Friday, the Jews on Saturday and Christians on Sunday. Add in the diverse holidays and we would never be working,

[Judas Maccabeus]

If what he says is true, which obviously we don’t know the other side, but it sounds like the person basically told him it was targeted.

Like they suddenly found a roofing job just in the vicinity of his home that they could do on Good Friday? Really? And they bent their schedule just so they could offend him? I do not buy it.

Sooner or later, probably sooner, a member of a church must know that he cannot force his preference on a body where there are an agreed set of standards. If you are a member of a community, sometimes you need put your preference aside.

Believe what you like, but my suspicion is he wanted the church to bend to his will. If you cannot accept the churches values and standards, you simply should not join. When I was on the cusp of joining my current church, a brother that frequents this board exhorted me not to suggest any changes until I had been a member for at least 5 years, otherwise I likely would be rebuffed because I simply would not be thought to understand the why of the standards in place. I feel that was good advice.

I keep wondering if your past missionary method you've talked about has caused you to always suspect people. You've implied the type of missionary work you did as somewhat deceptive- could it be you may always ascribe this then to others or make you always doubt people? I can see where that may have caused that. Not to say people don't lie or mislead, but You're almost always the suspicious one on the forum

No, the Mennonite church is not my first rodeo. I have been in leadership prior to that for some 30 years. I have been confronted with just about everything. People who insist we all homeschool, antivaxers, demands for patriotic services. If you don’t agree with the church you are proposing to join, don’t join. But trying to bend it to your desires just won’t be well received, especially if you are new. That is just the way it is.

How far do you think you would get if you tried to get an orthodox or Catholic Church to change?

[Valerie]

Like they suddenly found a roofing job just in the vicinity of his home that they could do on Good Friday? Really? And they bent their schedule just so they could offend him? I do not buy it.

Sooner or later, probably sooner, a member of a church must know that he cannot force his preference on a body where there are an agreed set of standards. If you are a member of a community, sometimes you need put your preference aside.

Believe what you like, but my suspicion is he wanted the church to bend to his will. If you cannot accept the churches values and standards, you simply should not join. When I was on the cusp of joining my current church, a brother that frequents this board exhorted me not to suggest any changes until I had been a member for at least 5 years, otherwise I likely would be rebuffed because I simply would not be thought to understand the why of the standards in place. I feel that was good advice.

I keep wondering if your past missionary method you've talked about has caused you to always suspect people. You've implied the type of missionary work you did as somewhat deceptive- could it be you may always ascribe this then to others or make you always doubt people? I can see where that may have caused that. Not to say people don't lie or mislead, but You're almost always the suspicious one on the forum

No, the Mennonite church is not my first rodeo. I have been in leadership prior to that for some 30 years. I have been confronted with just about everything. People who insist we all homeschool, antivaxers, demands for patriotic services. If you don’t agree with the church you are proposing to join, don’t join. But trying to bend it to your desires just won’t be well received, especially if you are new. That is just the way it is.

How far do you think you would get if you tried to get an orthodox or Catholic Church to change?

Nowhere.
I asked ALOT of questions and explained our understanding, but NOT with the purpose of changing them, we wanted to remove our assumptions, learn, understand, and fellowship. I believe that is why we can be friends with them without a wall of divide.

[Josh]

That’s one of my complaints with the Catholic and orthodox worlds. They haven’t moved one iota towards true, biblical Christianity as plain Anabaptists believe and practice it.

Yet adherents or admirers of those faiths keep telling us we should somehow take them credibly and move on their direction.

Should we accept the Catholics’ recent decision (coming from the Pope himself) to bless same sex marriages and cohabiters?

Should we accept the Orthodox blessing Ukrainian troops on the battlefield?

Should we accept the Orthodox blessing Russian troops on the battlefield?

Should we abandon our doctrines and embrace the gospel of Constantine and Augustine?

Should we replace our simple church services with a vast, complex hierarchy with gold plated vessels and exorbitant church buildings?

Should we replace our simple clothes with an array of bizarre vestments for the clergy, whilst requiring nothing at all of the laity who show up in shorts and flip flops?

[JayP]

It is amazingly mind boggling the running comments and absurd conclusions folks make about my simple non controversial statement.
I particularly applaud the person who simply asked for a clarification “how did you know…” and allowed me to answer “they said so”

Isn’t that a better process?

I openly state I come from a background and location where Good Friday WAS more practiced than other places.
I admit I CHOOSE to honor and practice that holiday.
I SAID I am fine with those that do not.

My POINT was for someone on OTHER side to practice their POV in a way that is “in your face” is simply wrong and dumb because it does not convince people.
I would assume most folks here oppose abortion. I do. But yelling “Baby killers” is not a solution.

I did not try to change my church. Eastern has no official position on Good Friday. There are always a few congregations with services that day, the majority do not. I agree with their position. It is NOT a salvation or doctrinal or discipline issue. But how we relate to one another OR the outside community IS a relevant issue.

[Josh]

I’m still not sure how one practices working on a Friday “in your face”. What exactly did they do?

[JayP]

Ok, they did roofing. They openly talked about how they would coordinate their job schedule where possible to find the most publicly viewed job site (I.e. near a major highway or such) to demonstrate they were working on Good Friday. And deliberately would take lunch around 11 because they did not want their break between Noon and Three lest folks interpret they were at least stopping foe those core hours. If you are unaware many Catholics for example might not take the full day but believe the hours Christ was on the cross (obviously a traditional view) deserve quiet time of reflection or inactivity.

They would make such statements for example, after services. My point again is this is uncalled for.
I found Ascension Thursday to be in the same situation. If you do not want it as a holiday, fine.
But telling the former Old Order person,or former Catholic, who view this as a holiday “I can’t wait to get to work that day” (note, this did not happen, it’s a hypothetical) is not a Christian and certainly not a non resistant way to be.

Boasting how you are working on what others perceive as a holiday, and stating you are making a display of it “in the face” of the community is not Christian. Lancaster County has a significant Catholic population. Many Protestants observe Good Friday. What is the Christianity “gain” of poking a finger in their eyes so to speak.

Remember, this is not about taking a stand on Christian fundamentals such as divorce, abortion, having our own schools.
Do we think the problem with general society is some of them choose to honor or recognize Christ’s death? We should be glad other folks at least are taking a day to think about Christ’s sacrifice. Why do we want our members doing something to generate friction over that?