The first Christian Church was Jewish

[Bootstrap]

Did the Talmud even exist in the first century?

The Talmud was written roughly between 200 AD and the fifth century. So no, it did not exist in the time of Jesus.

[JohnHurt]

Yes and no. In Matthew 15, Jesus is criticizing Pharisees, not Judaism in general. Obviously Jesus established a new universal religion to replace Judaism. But he was also a Jewish scholar. He frequently cited Jewish law and teachings in his sermons. And to my knowledge, never renounced his Jewish identity. For that matter, the Pharisees did not compile the Talmud until about 200 AD or two centuries after the life of Jesus.

Thanks Ken, for your comments.

The "Judaism" of today is the same religion, without a break, that was practiced by the historical Pharisees at the time of Christ. The Pharisees followed the "Traditions of the Elders", or "Oral Law", that was later codified into the Babylonian and Palestinian Talmud that is followed by the Jews of today.

Christ was never a Talmud follower, and so Christ was never what we would call today a "Jew". Here is what Christ said about the Talmud:

Mark 7:(1) Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem.

(2) And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault.

(3) For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

(4) And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

(5) Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

(6) He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

(7) Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

(8) For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

(9) And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

(10) For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

(11) But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.

(12) And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;

(13) Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Here is a commentary on Mark 7:11

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
11. If a man shall say] Literally it runs, If a man shall say to his father or his mother, That, from which thou mightest have been benefited by me, is Corban, that is to say, a gift, or offering consecrated to God, he shall be free, and ye suffer him no longer to do aught for his father or his mother. A person had merely to pronounce the word Corban over any possession or property, and it was irrevocably dedicated to the Temple. Our Lord is quoting a regular formula, which often occurs in the Talmudic tracts Nedarim and Nazir. Others would give to the words an imperative force, Be it Corban from which thou mightest have been benefited by me, i. e. “If I give thee anything or do anything for thee, may it be as though I gave thee that which is devoted to God, and may I be accounted perjured and sacrilegious.” This view certainly gives greater force to the charge made by our Lord, that the command “Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death” was nullified by the tradition.

The "Jews" of today follow the Talmud, which nullifies the Laws of God. Christ was never a "Jew" like we have today. Christ upheld the Laws of God and blasted the Pharisee Talmud followers for their lawlessness. (Matt 5:17-20)

[JohnHurt]

Did the Talmud even exist in the first century?

The Talmud was written roughly between 200 AD and the fifth century. So no, it did not exist in the time of Jesus.

It was called the 'Oral Law", or "Tradition of the Elders" at the time of Christ. Matthew 15:2

[JohnHurt]

All of the disciples were Jewish. When Jesus rose again, he told his disciples to go to Jerusalem and wait for the Holy Spirit there. The first leaders of the Church were all Jewish.

As Voltaire said, "If you wish to converse with me, define your terms."

I am quoting the Bible. So the real question is this: who was the Bible referring to in each of these passages. And I think almost all of these passages use "Jew" to refer to people who (1) Are ethnic Jews, children Abraham through Isaac and Jacob and the Twelve Tribes of Israel, who (2) follow Jewish laws and customs.

Do any of the passages in this thread use a different definition?

I understand the word "Jew" in the Bible is never used until after the return from Babylon.

"Jew" would be someone who is a descendant of Judah. So Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were never "Jews" because they were not the descendants of Judah.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob never followed the Oral Law/Talmud, or the "Traditions of the Elders" created by the Pharisees because the Oral Law/Talmud had not been invented when they lived on earth. It was developed by the Pharisees after the return from Babylon. It is a doctrine of men.

Abraham was not a "Jew" because Abraham did not follow the Talmud. Abraham kept the Torah, even before the first 5 Books of the Bible were written. The first use of the word Torah is translated as "laws" in this passage:

Genesis 26:(5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham kept the Torah, and the primary law of the Torah is that we should have no other "gods" or "lawmakers" superior to YHVH. Exodus 20:3

(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

No one can write, or "dream up" new laws to get around or abolish the Laws of God, and still claim they are followers of YHVH. When a man makes his own laws, he has become his own "god".

Moses, speaking for God, made it clear that absolutely no additions or subtractions should be made to God's Laws:

Deuteronomy 4:(2) Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

The Jewish Talmud or "Tradition of the Elders" is an addition to the word of God to let the "Jews" get around the Torah, as Christ clearly showed us in Matthew 15. In the modern sense of the term "Jew", Christ was never a "Jew" because He never followed the Talmud. Christ spoke out against the Tradition of the Elders as being contrary to the word of God.

You really need to read the Talmud to understand it. The versions you can read online are the "expurgated" versions, with anything offensive to the goyim (a non-Jew) removed. I believe the Soncino version published in 1920 is the unexpurgated version.

The Talmud says that Our Lord was the son of a Roman soldier named "Pantera", and practiced magic from Egypt from incantations tattooed on His arms.

The Talmud tells the Jews that the "goyim" like you and I, are no different than a cow. And so since we are all cattle, our land or any possession we have is like unclaimed land in the desert and should be taken by the Jews for their own use.

This is why the Jews have taken over Palestine by killing off the Palestinian farmers and replacing them with their endless "settlements", and why they are targeting Palestinian civilians (women and children) to be killed in Gaza as we speak. The Talmud tells them that the Palestinian people are not real humans, just cattle.

Christ would have never supported anything the Talmud teaches. Christ was a blessing to all men.

If you are interested in studying the Talmud, I can send you some links. But studying the Talmud can be hazardous to your spiritual health. There is something very evil inside of it. That is why Christ has nothing to do with "Modern Judaism". Rev 2:9, Rev 3:9

So please, do not call Christ a "Jew".

Thanks.

John Hurt

[Josh]

good gravy

[RZehr]

good gravy

[Ken]

So please, do not call Christ a "Jew".

Thanks.

John Hurt

Did Jesus consider HIMSELF a Jew?

Yes he did.

I'll go with his word over yours.

[Bootstrap]

So please, do not call Christ a "Jew".

You have already discarded much of the New Testament and at least the Book of Esther from your Bible. Do you want to discard parts of the Gospels as well?

The Bible calls Jesus the "son of David, the son of Abraham" and devotes quite a few verses to describing his Jewish lineage in Matthew 1 and Luke 3. Here's how Matthew 1 describes it:

This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:

2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,

God chose to have his son born in Bethlehem, to a Jewish couple. Jesus was baptized by that very Jewish prophet John the Baptist. Every one of his disciples was Jewish.

In Matthew 15:24, Jesus says:

I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.

Matthew and Luke each describe very Jewish genealogy of Jesus, starting with Abraham.

Matthew tells us that the Jews are "his people":

20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”

Clearly, "his people" refers to the Jews.

Need I go on?

[Bootstrap]

Christ was never a Talmud follower, and so Christ was never what we would call today a "Jew". Here is what Christ said about the Talmud:

Not the Talmud, which wasn't written until centuries later.

But the Scribes and Pharisees did have many practices of old, dead religion, self righteousness, and such that completely missed the point of (1) loving God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, (2) loving your neighbor as yourself, and (3) seeking first the Kingdom of God.

Just like many Christians today, I'm afraid. You don't need the Talmud for that. This was well before the Talmud existed.

I suspect very few modern Jews are that familiar with the Talmud, mostly ultra-Orthodox. You can read it here:

https://www.sefaria.org/texts/Talmud

It's an old, strange book. It changes the interpretation of Old Testament verses in ways I do not endorse. I agree with you when you say it's a different religion. Then again, if you have to discard the writings of Paul, the Book of Esther, etc., I think you yourself are creating a different religion than what we find in the Bible.

Isn't the Bible, as a whole, the foundation for our religion?

[JohnHurt]

So please, do not call Christ a "Jew".

Thanks.

John Hurt

Did Jesus consider HIMSELF a Jew?

Yes he did.

I'll go with his word over yours.

Scripture?