Mordecai and Esther were evil

[justme]

But no Jews, no Jesus.

In other words, you are saying that God couldn't have accomplished his plan without the Jews. In other words, you are saying that God is dependent on something. In other words, you are saying that God isn't almighty. This is blasphemy. God doesn't need anyone or anything to accomplish his plan. He would not have needed the Jews to bring the Messiah. If the Jews had not existed, God would've just used another people. God is not dependent on anything.

Even God wanted to annihilate the people of Israel twice, but twice he was prevented from doing so (Ex 32:9-10, Num 16:44-45). What do you say to this? And what do you say to the fact that God himself calls Israel the worst people in the world (Ezek 3:6-7, Ezek 5:6-7)?

I read paragraph 1, blasphemy to suggest that God needs help to accomplish His plan.
Then i read paragraph 2, which says God was prevented from doing something.
Which is it?

[Lex]

Wife: to be fair, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were all Babylonian names too,

Do you know what the difference is? Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego are mentioned by those names in only 2 chapters of the 12 chapters of the book of Daniel and in most cases by Nebuchadnezzar and his servants. Whereas Mordecai and Esther are constantly called by their pagan names throughout the book of Esther.

and even if it doesn’t directly reference God in the mesoric text, it talks about them proclaiming a fast for three days,

Because they fast for three days is that a reference to God? That is a very weak argument, because many pagans also fast for their gods.

and also, when Mordecai warned Esther that she and her offspring will not be safe in the palace and help will spring up from another source, that also seems to be an indirect reference to God.

Is that supposed to be a reference to God? That is also a very weak argument, because he could mean his pagan god Marduk by the "other source", because the name Mordecai means "servant of Marduk".

Also, Jesus had 12 disciples not 10, and didn’t build His cross to kill someone else with first.

Did you know that according to tradition, only 10 of the 12 apostles of Jesus did suffer martyrdom? The two who did not suffer martyrdom are John and Judas. John is said to have died of old age and Judas, as we know, died of suicide. I don't want to judge whether this tradition is true, but it would be consistent with the killing of the 10 sons of Haman by Esther.

[Soloist]

So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.
(13:8) Then Mardocheus thought upon all the works of the Lord, and made his prayer unto him,
(13:9) Saying, O Lord, Lord, the King Almighty: for the whole world is in thy power, and if thou hast appointed to save Israel, there is no man that can gainsay thee:
(13:10) For thou hast made heaven and earth, and all the wondrous things under the heaven.
(13:11) Thou art Lord of all things, and and there is no man that can resist thee, which art the Lord.
(13:12) Thou knowest all things, and thou knowest, Lord, that it was neither in contempt nor pride, nor for any desire of glory, that I did not bow down to proud Aman.
(13:13) For I could have been content with good will for the salvation of Israel to kiss the soles of his feet.
(13:14) But I did this, that I might not prefer the glory of man above the glory of God: neither will I worship any but thee, O God, neither will I do it in pride.
(13:15) And now, O Lord God and King, spare thy people: for their eyes are upon us to bring us to nought; yea, they desire to destroy the inheritance, that hath been thine from the beginning.
(13:16) Despise not the portion, which thou hast delivered out of Egypt for thine own self.
(13:17) Hear my prayer, and be merciful unto thine inheritance: turn our sorrow into joy, that we may live, O Lord, and praise thy name: and destroy not the mouths of them that praise thee, O Lord.
(13:18) All Israel in like manner cried most earnestly unto the Lord, because their death was before their eyes.
(14:1) Queen Esther also, being in fear of death, resorted unto the Lord:
(14:2) And laid away her glorious apparel, and put on the garments of anguish and mourning: and instead of precious ointments, she covered her head with ashes and dung, and she humbled her body greatly, and all the places of her joy she filled with her torn hair.
(14:3) And she prayed unto the Lord God of Israel, saying, O my Lord, thou only art our King: help me, desolate woman, which have no helper but thee:
(14:4) For my danger is in mine hand.
(14:5) From my youth up I have heard in the tribe of my family that thou, O Lord, tookest Israel from among all people, and our fathers from all their predecessors, for a perpetual inheritance, and thou hast performed whatsoever thou didst promise them.
(14:6) And now we have sinned before thee: therefore hast thou given us into the hands of our enemies,
(14:7) Because we worshipped their gods: O Lord, thou art righteous.
(14:8) Nevertheless it satisfieth them not, that we are in bitter captivity: but they have stricken hands with their idols,
(14:9) That they will abolish the thing that thou with thy mouth hast ordained, and destroy thine inheritance, and stop the mouth of them that praise thee, and quench the glory of thy house, and of thine altar,
(14:10) And open the mouths of the heathen to set forth the praises of the idols, and to magnify a fleshly king for ever.
(14:11) O Lord, give not thy sceptre unto them that be nothing, and let them not laugh at our fall; but turn their device upon themselves, and make him an example, that hath begun this against us.
(14:12) Remember, O Lord, make thyself known in time of our affliction, and give me boldness, O King of the nations, and Lord of all power.
(14:13) Give me eloquent speech in my mouth before the lion: turn his heart to hate him that fighteth against us, that there may be an end of him, and of all that are likeminded to him:
(14:14) But deliver us with thine hand, and help me that am desolate, and which have no other help but thee.
(14:15) Thou knowest all things, O Lord; thou knowest that I hate the glory of the unrighteous, and abhor the bed of the uncircumcised, and of all the heathen.
(14:16) Thou knowest my necessity: for I abhor the sign of my high estate, which is upon mine head in the days wherein I shew myself, and that I abhor it as a menstruous rag, and that I wear it not when I am private by myself.
(14:17) And that thine handmaid hath not eaten at Aman's table, and that I have not greatly esteemed the king's feast, nor drunk the wine of the drink offerings.
(14:18) Neither had thine handmaid any joy since the day that I was brought hither to this present, but in thee, O Lord God of Abraham.
(14:19) O thou mighty God above all, hear the voice of the forlorn and deliver us out of the hands of the mischievous, and deliver me out of my fear.

[Lex]

So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.
(13:8) Then Mardocheus thought upon all the works of the Lord, and made his prayer unto him,
(13:9) Saying, O Lord, Lord, the King Almighty: for the whole world is in thy power, and if thou hast appointed to save Israel, there is no man that can gainsay thee:
...

Using the Apocrypha as argument is very weak as well. Neither the Jews nor the Protestants accept this addition as canonical.

[ohio jones]

But no Jews, no Jesus.

In other words, you are saying that God couldn't have accomplished his plan without the Jews. In other words, you are saying that God is dependent on something. In other words, you are saying that God isn't almighty. This is blasphemy. God doesn't need anyone or anything to accomplish his plan. He would not have needed the Jews to bring the Messiah. If the Jews had not existed, God would've just used another people. God is not dependent on anything.

Even God wanted to annihilate the people of Israel twice, but twice he was prevented from doing so (Ex 32:9-10, Num 16:44-45). What do you say to this? And what do you say to the fact that God himself calls Israel the worst people in the world (Ezek 3:6-7, Ezek 5:6-7)?

Yes, God could have chosen a different people and a different plan. But He didn't.

It seems you don't like the way God did things. That's a dangerous position to take.

[Soloist]

Using the Apocrypha as argument is very weak as well. Neither the Jews nor the Protestants accept this addition as canonical.

Yet the Catholics, Orthodox and some Anabaptists do.
Can you actually source your claim on the Jews?

So far your arguments have been weak, factually wrong, major leaps in unstable logic… you aren’t convincing anyone.

[Josh]

So Mordecai went his way, and did according to all that Esther had commanded him.
(13:8) Then Mardocheus thought upon all the works of the Lord, and made his prayer unto him,
(13:9) Saying, O Lord, Lord, the King Almighty: for the whole world is in thy power, and if thou hast appointed to save Israel, there is no man that can gainsay thee:
...

Using the Apocrypha as argument is very weak as well. Neither the Jews nor the Protestants accept this addition as canonical.

Wait, so you trust the Jews to decide what the canon is now?

[Bootstrap]

Yes, God could have chosen a different people and a different plan. But He didn't.

It seems you don't like the way God did things. That's a dangerous position to take.

And in the Book of Esther, it looks like God doesn't like people to spread lies against the Jews in order to promote hatred against them. Haman learned that the hard way.

Most of our Bible is the Old Testament. Jesus was a Jew. We Gentiles are grafted onto the vine. The gates of Heaven bear the names of the 12 Tribes of Israel. In the Kingdom of God, "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

Lex, God can change hearts. Are you part of a fellowship of believers? Do you have people in your life who can pray with you? Are you working your way through the Bible with something like the Bible Project that can help you grasp the major themes of the Bible?

[Bootstrap]

Drat, and here I thought Purim was a safe alternative to celebrate for the kids! Time to appropriate a different holiday, I guess...

I would feel uncomfortable with the traditional part of a Purim celebration where all the Gentiles being killed is celebrated. Doesn’t feel appropriate for an NT Christian.

Not "all the Gentiles", but Haman, the person who launched a plot to have all the Jews killed. He was killed instead of Mordecai, in precisely the way he wanted Mordecai to be killed, impaled on the pole he had erected for Mordecai.

As Christians, this is not the way we treat our enemies. We love those who hate us and pray for those who persecute us. "Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good." In the Book of Esther, there is rejoicing over the evil fate that Haman reaches, precisely the fate he had plotted for Mordecai. "Serves him right" - but still, that's not the way of Jesus.

Neither is ranting against Jews on the Internet, of course ...

[Lex]

Using the Apocrypha as argument is very weak as well. Neither the Jews nor the Protestants accept this addition as canonical.

Yet the Catholics, Orthodox and some Anabaptists do.
Can you actually source your claim on the Jews?

So far your arguments have been weak, factually wrong, major leaps in unstable logic… you aren’t convincing anyone.

The Old Testament was given to the Jews first, so it makes more sense to follow the Jewish canon.

The Catholics only added the Apocrypha to the Bible in a non-ecumenical council in 382 A.D., and later in the ecumenical Council of Trent between 1545-1563. Why should I follow the late Catholic canon? Besides, the Catholics and Orthodox have different canons even among themselves, it's a mess.

The Jews and Protestants have the same Old Testament canon, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_ ... traditions