Lex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:24 am
The Old Testament was given to the Jews first, so it makes more sense to follow the Jewish canon.
The Catholics only added the Apocrypha to the Bible in a non-ecumenical council in 382 A.D., and later in the ecumenical Council of Trent between 1545-1563. Why should I follow the late Catholic canon? Besides, the Catholics and Orthodox have different canons even among themselves, it's a mess.
The apocryphal books were respected from the time of the apostles. The rest of the books of the Bible like the NT weren't in the canon either until the ecumenical councils.
More importantly, as an Anabaptist, the apocryphal books have always played a key role in Anabaptism. The groups that drop the apocryphal books are those who buy wholesale into fundamentalist evangelicalism - and I am not interested in listening to Luther or Calvin tell me to take a pair of scissors to the Bible and remove books they didn't like.
Lex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:24 am
The Old Testament was given to the Jews first, so it makes more sense to follow the Jewish canon.
The Catholics only added the Apocrypha to the Bible in a non-ecumenical council in 382 A.D., and later in the ecumenical Council of Trent between 1545-1563. Why should I follow the late Catholic canon? Besides, the Catholics and Orthodox have different canons even among themselves, it's a mess.
The apocryphal books were respected from the time of the apostles. The rest of the books of the Bible like the NT weren't in the canon either until the ecumenical councils.
More importantly, as an Anabaptist, the apocryphal books have always played a key role in Anabaptism. The groups that drop the apocryphal books are those who buy wholesale into fundamentalist evangelicalism - and I am not interested in listening to Luther or Calvin tell me to take a pair of scissors to the Bible and remove books they didn't like.
Then please tell me which apocrypha belong to the canon. There are apocrypha that belong to the Orthodox canon but are rejected by Catholics, such as the Prayer of Mannaseh, 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees and Psalm 151. So which canon should I follow, that of the Catholics or that of the Orthodox? As I said, there is a mess among the Catholics and the Orthodox. It would be better to follow the Jewish canon.
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:42 am
Oddly enough, the Jews rejected Jesus too.
It is very frightening that you go so far as to question the canon of the Bible in order to defend Mordechai and Esther. What must outsiders think when they see this discussion? "Christians don't even know which book they believe in" they think. Is that what you want?
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:42 am
Oddly enough, the Jews rejected Jesus too.
But in the early Church, the people who accepted Jesus were mostly Jewish. So much so that they didn't know what to do when Gentile churches formed. In Acts 15, we see the Council in Jerusalem discussing how to make room for Gentiles to also be part of the church, without first being circumcised and obeying the Jewish law. They were surprised that this was even possible, but God was clearly doing something new.
Most Jews probably did reject Jesus. Just like most Gentiles.
1 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Soloist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:42 am
Oddly enough, the Jews rejected Jesus too.
But in the early Church, the people who accepted Jesus were mostly Jewish. So much so that they didn't know what to do when Gentile churches formed. In Acts 15, we see the Council in Jerusalem discussing how to make room for Gentiles to also be part of the church, without first being circumcised and obeying the Jewish law. They were surprised that this was even possible, but God was clearly doing something new.
Most Jews probably did reject Jesus. Just like most Gentiles.
I was making a point about trusting Jews on Canon.
1 x
Soloist, but I hate singing alone Soloist, but my wife posts with me Soloist, but I believe in community Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
I have provided enough evidence that Mordecai and Esther are the wicked ones. And I couldn't see anyone here who was able to refute my reasons.
I would like to add one more thing:
Haman's name means "magnificent", see https://www.studylight.org/lexicons/eng ... /2001.html. That is a beautiful name. But the names of Mordecai and Esther are not beautiful at all, because they contain names of pagan gods.
Last edited by Lex on Sat Mar 02, 2024 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
Lex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:58 am
I would like to add one more thing:
Haman's name means "magnificent". That is a beautiful name. But the names of Mordecai and Esther are not beautiful at all, because they contain names of pagan gods.
I have provided enough evidence that Mordecai and Esther are the wicked ones. And I couldn't see anyone here who was able to refute my reasons.
Pro 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
Pro 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Pro 26:6 He that sendeth a message by the hand of a fool cutteth off the feet, and drinketh damage.
Pro 26:7 The legs of the lame are not equal: so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
Pro 26:8 As he that bindeth a stone in a sling, so is he that giveth honour to a fool.
Pro 26:9 As a thorn goeth up into the hand of a drunkard, so is a parable in the mouth of fools.
1 x
Soloist, but I hate singing alone Soloist, but my wife posts with me Soloist, but I believe in community Soloist, but I want God in the pilot seat
Lex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:58 am
I have provided enough evidence that Mordecai and Esther are the wicked ones. And I couldn't see anyone here who was able to refute my reasons.
That's only because you are grading your own paper.
Nobody else in this conversation seems to think you have provided evidence that they are the wicked ones. And I, at least, think that several people have shown that you are missing the whole point of the Book of Esther. And of much of the Bible.
Seriously, I'd suggest you sign up for something like The Bible Project and spend time learning the Bible. And steer away from those Anti-Semitic websites, they aren't teaching you what the Bible actually says. And I think it's important to be part of a healthy Christian fellowship.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Lex wrote: ↑Sat Mar 02, 2024 9:41 am
Then please tell me which apocrypha belong to the canon. There are apocrypha that belong to the Orthodox canon but are rejected by Catholics, such as the Prayer of Mannaseh, 1 Esdras, 3 Maccabees and Psalm 151. So which canon should I follow, that of the Catholics or that of the Orthodox? As I said, there is a mess among the Catholics and the Orthodox. It would be better to follow the Jewish canon.
I personally like both the Orthodox and Catholic apocrypha put together and don't see a reason to choose one or the other. (In Eastern Catholic churches, the Orthodox books are actually canonical, so it's not quite accurate to say there are diferent apocrypha.) I also affirm the book of Enoch as I think it supports the rest of scripture and has an important message for us in the modern era.
I also don't think you're correct that the "Jewish canon" doesn't include the apocryphal books; the Septuagint was translated by proselytes who followed Judaism to a tee, and they decided it was important to include the apocryphal books.
