Satan - Any real good deeds?

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MaxPC
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by MaxPC »

Neto, here is what the US Geological Survey says (I agree with it):
What does science say about dowsing?
Case histories and demonstrations of dowsers may seem convincing, but when dowsing is exposed to scientific examination, it presents a very different picture. The natural explanation of "successful" water dowsing is that in many areas underground water is so prevalent close to the land surface that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water. In a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology, it is difficult not to drill and find water!

Some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere. This explains why many dowsers appear to be successful. To locate groundwater accurately, however, as to depth, quantity, and quality, a number of techniques must be used . Hydrologic, geologic, and geophysical knowledge is needed to determine the depths and extent of the different water-bearing strata and the quantity and quality of water found in each . The area must be thoroughly tested and studied to determine these facts.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/dowsing.html
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

MaxPC wrote:Neto, here is what the US Geological Survey says (I agree with it):
What does science say about dowsing?
Case histories and demonstrations of dowsers may seem convincing, but when dowsing is exposed to scientific examination, it presents a very different picture. The natural explanation of "successful" water dowsing is that in many areas underground water is so prevalent close to the land surface that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water. In a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology, it is difficult not to drill and find water!

Some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere. This explains why many dowsers appear to be successful. To locate groundwater accurately, however, as to depth, quantity, and quality, a number of techniques must be used . Hydrologic, geologic, and geophysical knowledge is needed to determine the depths and extent of the different water-bearing strata and the quantity and quality of water found in each . The area must be thoroughly tested and studied to determine these facts.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/dowsing.html
Yes, that's the sort of thing I read back in college Anthropology readings (1975), with the sight difference that they were saying that the dowsers had learned, from years of experience, to evaluate the lay of the land and pick the best spot for drilling. (They were reporting based on a study where they took a number of dowsers and geologists out to the same field, and had each one separately choose his best spot. Then they drilled in each of those locations, and evaluated the rate of success.) But as one who comes from an area of the country where a well that produces even 5 gallons a minute is considered a good well, I would disagree with the idea that you can drill anywhere you want & find water. If you go deep enough, yes, but not at reasonable depths. A friend from Michigan told me that when they needed water, they just pounded a sand point 20 or so feet into the ground, and they had water (for irrigation). You certainly cannot do that in Oklahoma, and not even in the Amazon rain forest.
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haithabu
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by haithabu »

Speaking to the subject line, I once read a transcript of some talks given by a Mennonite in deliverance ministry who was speaking to a group of AIMM missionaries in the field (of whom my sister was one). I think it was Dean Hochstetler.

In it he addressed the question of Satan doing good and expressed the belief that Satan could not truly heal, that the so called healings occurring with shamanism merely displaced the presenting illness into another form, whether it was spiritual bondage, chronic depression or other forms of personal dysfunction.

He based this on what he observed in his deliverance ministry among Old Order groups. People who came to him for spiritual deliverance almost always seemed to have a personal or familial connection with powwowing, and the path to deliverance for them led through renouncing that earlier involvement. In some cases the original illness briefly resumed at the point of deliverance, presumably because the displacement had ceased.
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

haithabu wrote:Speaking to the subject line, I once read a transcript of some talks given by a Mennonite in deliverance ministry who was speaking to a group of AIMM missionaries in the field (of whom my sister was one). I think it was Dean Hochstetler.

In it he addressed the question of Satan doing good and expressed the belief that Satan could not truly heal, that the so called healings occurring with shamanism merely displaced the presenting illness into another form, whether it was spiritual bondage, chronic depression or other forms of personal dysfunction.

He based this on what he observed in his deliverance ministry among Old Order groups. People who came to him for spiritual deliverance almost always seemed to have a personal or familial connection with powwowing, and the path to deliverance for them led through renouncing that earlier involvement. In some cases the original illness briefly resumed at the point of deliverance, presumably because the displacement had ceased.
Thank you. This fits with my observations in the animist tribal group with whom we lived. But it is interesting that the sickness will re-manifest when the real cure is applied. Sort of a last ditch effort by the devil to regain control.

But sorry, I don't know or recall what AIMM is in this context:
Aviation Interpersonal Maintenance Management?
Associação para a Investigação do Meio Marinho?
Alliance of Independent Music Merchants?
AGP In-line Memory Module?
alliance for integrated medication management?

(I know it isn't any of these, but while I have probably read it here before, I'm forgetful.)
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MaxPC
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by MaxPC »

Neto wrote:
MaxPC wrote:Neto, here is what the US Geological Survey says (I agree with it):
What does science say about dowsing?
Case histories and demonstrations of dowsers may seem convincing, but when dowsing is exposed to scientific examination, it presents a very different picture. The natural explanation of "successful" water dowsing is that in many areas underground water is so prevalent close to the land surface that it would be hard to drill a well and not find water. In a region of adequate rainfall and favorable geology, it is difficult not to drill and find water!

Some water exists under the Earth's surface almost everywhere. This explains why many dowsers appear to be successful. To locate groundwater accurately, however, as to depth, quantity, and quality, a number of techniques must be used . Hydrologic, geologic, and geophysical knowledge is needed to determine the depths and extent of the different water-bearing strata and the quantity and quality of water found in each . The area must be thoroughly tested and studied to determine these facts.
https://water.usgs.gov/edu/dowsing.html
Yes, that's the sort of thing I read back in college Anthropology readings (1975), with the sight difference that they were saying that the dowsers had learned, from years of experience, to evaluate the lay of the land and pick the best spot for drilling. (They were reporting based on a study where they took a number of dowsers and geologists out to the same field, and had each one separately choose his best spot. Then they drilled in each of those locations, and evaluated the rate of success.) But as one who comes from an area of the country where a well that produces even 5 gallons a minute is considered a good well, I would disagree with the idea that you can drill anywhere you want & find water. If you go deep enough, yes, but not at reasonable depths. A friend from Michigan told me that when they needed water, they just pounded a sand point 20 or so feet into the ground, and they had water (for irrigation). You certainly cannot do that in Oklahoma, and not even in the Amazon rain forest.
I've never lived in OK so I'll defer to your experience. I'd hazard a guess the situation is even worse in Nevada and certain other areas as well. I wonder if water dowsers avoid those states to improve their tracking record? :lol:
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
haithabu
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by haithabu »

Neto wrote:
haithabu wrote:Speaking to the subject line, I once read a transcript of some talks given by a Mennonite in deliverance ministry who was speaking to a group of AIMM missionaries in the field (of whom my sister was one). I think it was Dean Hochstetler.

In it he addressed the question of Satan doing good and expressed the belief that Satan could not truly heal, that the so called healings occurring with shamanism merely displaced the presenting illness into another form, whether it was spiritual bondage, chronic depression or other forms of personal dysfunction.

He based this on what he observed in his deliverance ministry among Old Order groups. People who came to him for spiritual deliverance almost always seemed to have a personal or familial connection with powwowing, and the path to deliverance for them led through renouncing that earlier involvement. In some cases the original illness briefly resumed at the point of deliverance, presumably because the displacement had ceased.
Thank you. This fits with my observations in the animist tribal group with whom we lived. But it is interesting that the sickness will re-manifest when the real cure is applied. Sort of a last ditch effort by the devil to regain control.

But sorry, I don't know or recall what AIMM is in this context:
Aviation Interpersonal Maintenance Management?
Associação para a Investigação do Meio Marinho?
Alliance of Independent Music Merchants?
AGP In-line Memory Module?
alliance for integrated medication management?

(I know it isn't any of these, but while I have probably read it here before, I'm forgetful.)

Sorry, AIMM is African Inter-Mennonite MIssion and the teaching sessions were held in Burkina Faso some time in the early 80's or late 70's
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

Another line of thinking. Presumably shamans sometimes performed incantations designed to bring rain or fertility (both in the field and for people or animals) that coincided with God giving rain, causing crops to grow, or opening the womb of human or animal. So is the Satan just piggy-backing on God's gracious provisions, pretending to be the provider of these good things? But does the devil even have knowledge of where there are underground streams of good, pure water (as in the case if dousing for water is 'of the devil')? The Scripture tells us that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but also that he comes as an angel of light. This got me thinking about the somewhat different question below.

This is a bit of a different subject, but in thinking about this while I was having breakfast this morning, I realized that the Scripture never describes any evil spirit as taking any human-like form. Then I remembered that in the Luke film, the screen-writers depicted the Satan as appearing as a snake, and that I had thought (at the time I first saw it) that he would have been in a human-like appearance. We all know that there are limitations on the devil and other fallen angels in comparison to God's power, but this is a difference between fallen angels (demons) and the holy angels, who do appear in human-like form, even being capable of consuming food, etc.

[I feel like a fish who brought his own bait, put it on the hook, and is starting to nibble, but there is no one on the other end to jerk the line. So can someone point me to Scriptural evidence that the devil has knowledge of when God is going to heal, or provide some good thing, or even where there are underground streams of water? His purpose, of course, would be to deceive, which is smack on with his character.]
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Josh
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Josh »

I have an opinion that the devil likes to keep people in a superstitious state of fear. The gospel provides a way out of those superstitions and those fears with its promise of eternal life and of absolute power over the enemy.
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haithabu
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by haithabu »

Neto wrote:Another line of thinking. Presumably shamans sometimes performed incantations designed to bring rain or fertility (both in the field and for people or animals) that coincided with God giving rain, causing crops to grow, or opening the womb of human or animal. So is the Satan just piggy-backing on God's gracious provisions, pretending to be the provider of these good things? But does the devil even have knowledge of where there are underground streams of good, pure water (as in the case if dousing for water is 'of the devil')? The Scripture tells us that the devil comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but also that he comes as an angel of light. This got me thinking about the somewhat different question below.

This is a bit of a different subject, but in thinking about this while I was having breakfast this morning, I realized that the Scripture never describes any evil spirit as taking any human-like form. Then I remembered that in the Luke film, the screen-writers depicted the Satan as appearing as a snake, and that I had thought (at the time I first saw it) that he would have been in a human-like appearance. We all know that there are limitations on the devil and other fallen angels in comparison to God's power, but this is a difference between fallen angels (demons) and the holy angels, who do appear in human-like form, even being capable of consuming food, etc.

[I feel like a fish who brought his own bait, put it on the hook, and is starting to nibble, but there is no one on the other end to jerk the line. So can someone point me to Scriptural evidence that the devil has knowledge of when God is going to heal, or provide some good thing, or even where there are underground streams of water? His purpose, of course, would be to deceive, which is smack on with his character.]
From Job we know that Satan has the freedom to wander the earth at will and to freely observe all things. In Luke 4 we read his uncontradicted claim that he has been given authority over all earthly kingdoms and this is corroborated in 2 Corinthians 4:4 which describes him as "the god of this world [age]". From Luke 13:16 we learn that he has the power to cause human illness.

So would Satan know the details of the water table or the location of hidden treasure or have sufficient insider information and the ability to influence events to make a follower successful in the stock market or business or in the entertainment industry? Or be able to reverse an illness that he himself has induced? I think it is reasonable to believe that he could.

It is also true that God is greater than all these powers and we don't need to be afraid of them, though we should also be aware of them. But for a tribesman without the gospel, that devilish power may have more practical reality that the abstract and distant concept of an all powerful, just and loving creator.
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