Satan - Any real good deeds?

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ken_sylvania
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by ken_sylvania »

How are you defining "good" and "good deeds?"

A quick Google definition is:
Good: 1.that which is morally right; righteousness.
"a mysterious balance of good and evil"
synonyms: virtue, righteousness, goodness, morality, integrity, rectitude; More
2.benefit or advantage to someone or something.
"he convinces his father to use his genius for the good of mankind"
synonyms: benefit, advantage, profit, gain, interest, welfare, well-being; More
I don't think that Satan is willing to (possibly not even able to) do anything in definition #1. Proverbs says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin, implying that anything done with a wrong motive is sinful.
On the other hand, I'd be inclined to think that Satan might at times do things which could benefit mankind. His ultimate goal, of course, would be to deceive. Maybe it could be compared to "loss-leaders" at a grocery store. Beneficial to their customer base, but with an ulterior motive, which is to get customers into the store so that they buy other items where the store makes a profit (I don't condemn the use of loss-leaders - I'm just trying to illustrate a concept).
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RZehr
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by RZehr »

How about water witching? Is that a good deed done by Satan? Or is it a removing of his evil deeds?
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Wayne in Maine
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Wayne in Maine »

RZehr wrote:How about water witching? Is that a good deed done by Satan? Or is it a removing of his evil deeds?
Water Witching, Muscle Testing, Reflexology and a host of other practices that are all too common among plain Christian folks ultimately draw people into more dangerous spiritual realms and superstition. "Good deeds" that ultimately deceive and lead to bad ends are not good even if, in the temporal realm, they make the recipient feel good.
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

These modern day examples are interesting up to a point, but there is no solid evidence one way or another, if one is a Biblicist. I was hoping that someone would think of an example from Scripture that I have missed. [Valerie mentioned the demon possessed girl telling that Paul & his companion(s) were telling the true way of salvation, but I hesitate to include it as a good thing, because not only did it vex Paul, but Jesus himself, when he was 'given witness to' by evil spirits that apparently were unable to refrain from announcing who he was, hushed them. So I conclude that he regarded it as bad. Is this an example of a 'good thing done with evil intent'? Then this would answer the question posed by Ken Sylvania - that such a thing is not good at all, but is itself as evil as the intent.]

The corollary discussion, as to whether the Satan is CAPABLE of doing any good thing, is interesting as well, and I think it plays an important role in determining the answer to the question I posed in the opening post. The example of Job shows us that he is not able to do even evil without being permitted to do so by God. (Unless we interpret the need for permission as relating to the fact that Job belonged to God, thus more protected than another person.)
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

I have been reading in the Old Testament Prophets recently, and I'm in Jeremiah now. Last night I came to chapter 14, where in last part of that chapter (verse 22) the prophet says:
Do any of the worthless idols of the nations bring rain? Do the skies themselves send down showers? No, it is you, O YHWH our God. Therefore our hope is in you, for you are the One who does all this. (NIV)
This forms a contra-example (I hope I'm using this word correctly. What I mean is that I was looking for Scripture where it specifically says that the Satan did, or is incapable of doing, something good, but this states that God alone does this particular good thing - giving rain.) for what I've been looking for. It is not narrative, but 'just' the prophet Jeremiah's words, but I think it is a valid indicator of the attitude of Scripture. Many of the pagan rites of the false religions of that time centered around fertility, perhaps even predominantly in the context of planting, but also in the context of childbirth. (And it is abundantly clear in Scripture, through both narrative & teaching, that God both closes & opens the womb as he wills.) People sacrificed their own children - their own fertility - in their attempts to secure fertility in the fields. In the traditional religions of the Indians of this continent rain dances are purported to have played a significant role. That would have been attempts to secure rain through appeals to evil spirits. (I can imagine that someone will say that they were appealing to God himself, the Great Spirit, so perhaps I should confine my comments to cases mentioned in Scripture, as there is no record that I am aware of that indicates that they were also doing such things as child sacrifices.) I think that people on both sides of this discussion may need to allow this Scripture concept to refine our thinking.
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MaxPC
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by MaxPC »

This Scripture was in my morning reading and I thought it's a good corollary for your topic, Neto.
Matthew 5
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

MaxPC wrote:This Scripture was in my morning reading and I thought it's a good corollary for your topic, Neto.
Matthew 5
44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
Yes, I thought of that Scripture during the day too, but didn't recall where it was located.
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Paul
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Paul »

I am a little bit puzzled aswell by this question, how could pure evil have any genuine good deed? In the OT (1 Samuel 28) the witch of endor helped Saul to conjure up the spirit of Samuel, which I assume must've been through demonic force, though one can wonder whether that was really Samuel or a demonic deception. But I don't think that really qualifies as a good deed.

As someone else mentioned before though, it is clear from Scripture that satan can work counterfeit miracles to deceive people (if possible even the elect) - and these miracles do give temporal benefits, though they lead to eternal destruction and can't be considered 'good deeds' in any sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

Paul wrote:I am a little bit puzzled aswell by this question, how could pure evil have any genuine good deed? In the OT (1 Samuel 28) the witch of endor helped Saul to conjure up the spirit of Samuel, which I assume must've been through demonic force, though one can wonder whether that was really Samuel or a demonic deception. But I don't think that really qualifies as a good deed.

As someone else mentioned before though, it is clear from Scripture that satan can work counterfeit miracles to deceive people (if possible even the elect) - and these miracles do give temporal benefits, though they lead to eternal destruction and can't be considered 'good deeds' in any sense.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
My understanding of the sorceress of Endor is that she was startled when "Samuel" appeared. It seems, then, that what/who she saw was not what/who she expected. It does seem contrary to God's workings that it really was Samuel, but that does seem to be the implication of the text (at least as I understand it - I readily admit that I am not a Hebrew scholar). So in the context of this discussion, I don't know what to make of that example.

Earlier we were talking about God providing the rain (and sun) for everyone, both good & evil. The shamans in Egypt were able to duplicate some of the plagues that Yahweh sent down on Egypt through Moses & Aaron. But, again, those were all bad things, curses, exactly what we expect from the devil & his crew. Those things are at least not presented by Scripture as counterfeits or fakes, sleight of hand, so they appear to have been genuine 'miracles', if such a curse can be called that. So back to rain. I didn't mention it, didn't even think of it at the time, but of course the obvious event of this sort was Elijah on mount Carmel (I Kings 18), where the sorcerers of Baal were unable to call down rain, four hundred of them. If the Satan had been able to do so, would it not have been clearly to his advantage to bring down rain that day?

So I've been attempting to think of how this should be applied to the modern day question someone already posed - what about 'water witching' (known as dousing where I come from). I can think in the following vein: Since all good comes from God, we should depend solely on Him, not attempting to 'assist Him' by use of any such tool as the dousing rod (or wire). But then my self argues with myself, saying, "But we also know and believe that healing comes from God. But we still believe that we can use medicines and the services of Doctors to 'assist' in the process, if possible. Do we not believe that God has given many plants as natural medicines?" And my self goes on to remind me that while in Brazil we sometimes used natural medicines that the Indians told us about, things that we could easily recognize as effective. Things that their shamans had almost certainly also used in conjunction with their demonic practices. (The oil from a certain tree is an incredible antiseptic. We also used certain flowers & leaves to treat colds & sore throats, and some tree saps were used as pain killers for tooth aches. Many of these medicinal uses are not documented anywhere, which is part of the reason Brazil is so keen on keeping foreigners out of the Amazon. While we were there, a European guy, Dutch, I think, was arrested for having a collection of leaves in his boat. He told them that 'They must have just fallen into the boat as I was going through the flooded areas,' but they didn't fall for it. Brazil wants to discover & document those things themselves, because they know that if big foreign corporations are involved, the benefits will all leave Brazil.)

I don't think I mentioned it before, because I didn't have any examples of it at the time, although I have often seen this sort of thing both in the newspaper, and on FaceBook, what I call 'incantational prayers'. I have always just deleted them, but I just saw two of these in the last few days.
Before the end of this month, God will increase your money .... if you know that God is able type AMEN and share.
and another
Every hand that will type AMEN and share in 3 seconds, by faith, <picture of 'Jesus' here, with bloody whipped back> you receive a miracle.
These are not exactly occultic, but they utilize an occultic approach - an attempt to manipulate a spiritual power by some type of saying or practice. You see the same thing with the prophets of Baal on Mt Carmel, and even the 'Seven Sons of Sceva' (Acts 19), who were, ostensibly, doing a 'good thing', and invoking the Name of Jesus to do so.

So I've attempted to make an application of the principle I believe we see in Scripture, that is, that the Satan is incapable of doing any good thing. (Or at least unwilling, although the Mt Carmel deal certainly makes it look like he is incapable.) But the application force is weak, and I cannot make it stick to something like the thing someone brought up earlier - the deal of looking for water. Finding water is a good thing, and at least in the times I've seen it done (only twice), there was never any incantation or manipulation of any spiritual power involved. (People here in Holmes County Ohio talk about people doing it over a map, and I'd say there is something very suspicious about that sort of practice. But I'll also say that in Oklahoma where I come from, an area of the country where it is generally pretty difficult to find water at all, such things were unheard of.) But I didn't want this to be about dousing for water - it is just a case to which what ever principle that can be identified should be applied. So far, though, the most likely Biblical truth than can be most clearly seen is that the Satan is not able to give any good thing, so even if this practice was an attempt to manipulate him into indicating where there is water, he is neither able nor willing to do that. It seems to me that the application is this, that since all water that comes from the sky is from God, so also the water that comes from the earth is from God. (Although the question remains if this method of finding it is the wrong one, or not. What is clear to me, so far, at least, is that it cannot be the Satan who is causing it to be found in this way.) But this is just a sort of bunny trail - my real question is still if the devil is able to do any good thing, and I need to see it in the Scripture, because that is all I know as an authority.
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Neto
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Re: Satan - Any real good deeds?

Post by Neto »

Sorry for dragging this back up, folks, but I have another question. (I would also really like it if someone would think of another "test case" to help verify my understanding that the devil cannot do any good thing.) But here's the next question, referring back to what some of you call 'water witching'. I've heard people here in Ohio talk about doing some sort of pendulum swinging over a map, with claims that people find a well location that way. I had never heard of that sort of deal in Oklahoma (where I grew up, and where you cannot just drill anywhere you please & find water), and would have to conclude that it is either a lot of nonsense, or there's something evil going on with it. Now, that challenges my understanding of the Scriptures, in which I find no instance of the Satan ever doing anything that is good. I know, it doesn't say that he cannot, or even that he will not, but it seems to me that there were cases in the Biblical story where it would have been clearly to his advantage to do so. But if the devil can, and does, provide water well locations through the use of a pendulum and a map, then I have a dilemma. (My assumption is that good pure water is a good thing. We have Scripture that states that God is the one who provides rain, bot for the righteous & the unrighteous, which is pretty all inclusive.) So has anyone here personally witnessed this being done successfully, without the 'practitioner' ever having stepped foot on the property in question. I realize that a single instance does not prove that it was not chance, but it's a start, and I still cannot think of another verifiable test case (that is, something not having anything to do with water).
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