Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

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Lex
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Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Lex »

Peace to you. Romans 11 is very often used by Zionists to prove that ethnic Israel is still God's people, but I will now show through a verse by verse explanation of the chapter that Romans 11 does not teach that ethnic Israel is still God's people but that their interpretation is wrong.

Verse by verse explanation of Romans 11
1 I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? Far from it! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
The apostle Paul says here that God has not rejected Israel. The Zionists claim that this means that Israel is still God's people. But that is not what the verse says, the verse just says "God has not rejected Israel". Now what is meant by that? Let's read the second half of the first verse: "For I myself am an Israelite". The second half of the first verse explains the meaning of the first half of the first verse. What Paul wants to say is: "Has God destined the WHOLE Jewish people for eternal hell? No! For I am the best example that a Jew can follow Christ." Paul is addressing this chapter to people who have claimed that all Jews are destined for eternal damnation and are therefore unable to accept the truth. Paul makes it clear: "No, that is wrong! A Jew can become a Christian too"

The Zionists also claim that because Paul still calls Israel "HIS people", i.e. God's people, Israel is still God's people. But that is not the case. The reason why Paul says "HIS people" here is merely for identification. Even followers of replacement theology sometimes say about Israel "God's people killed the Messiah" They call Israel God's people, but not because they believe that Israel is still God's people, but purely as an identification. We also find an example in the Bible. In Matt 26:47, the narrator of the Gospel calls Judas "one of the twelve" although he no longer belonged to the twelve but was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26). The narrator calls Judas "one of the twelve" purely out of identification.
Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed Your prophets, they have torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they are seeking my life.” 4 But what is the divine response to him? “I have kept for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, since otherwise grace is no longer grace. 7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened; 8 just as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, Eyes to see not and ears to hear not, Down to this very day.”
This passage confirms what I wrote in the previous passage. Paul explains here that just as there was a remnant of good Jews in Elijah's time, there is also a remnant of good Jews who follow Christ now (Rom 9:27). He thus clearly states: "There are Jews who can become Christians." He clearly contradicts the idea that "no Jew can become a Christian".
9 And David says, “May their table become a snare and a trap, And a stumbling block and a retribution to them. 10 May their eyes be darkened to see not, And bend their backs continually.”
King David curses the disobedient Jews.
11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it! But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Therefore insofar as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 if somehow I may move my own people to jealousy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are as well.
Be careful, Paul is not saying here that the Jews should be thanked for killing Jesus. For the killing of Jesus was clearly a sin, see Mark 14:21 and John 19:11. Paul says here that the result of the murder of Jesus is good, because Jesus died for sins. But just because the result is good does not mean that the murder of Jesus is good in itself. The murder of Jesus remains sin and injustice, because the only innocent person was killed.

Paul also says in this passage that a Jew who accepts Jesus is free from the blood guilt of Jesus. The blood guilt of Jesus weighs on whole Israel according to Matt 27:25, but a Jew who accepts Jesus will be freed from it and partake of eternal life. The sacrifice of Jesus is powerful enough.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God: to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
Again, it is clear that Paul is addressing the chapter to those who claim that all Jews are incapable of accepting the truth. He calls them arrogant and makes it clear again: "Yes, the Jews have fallen away through unbelief, but a Jew is able to accept Jesus and if he does, he will be grafted into the tree of life" You can't call all Jews bad and evil, because although most of them will go to hell, a small remnant will/has accepted Jesus.
25 For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.” 27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
"All" here refers only to those Jews who accepted Jesus. It does not, as some crazy Zionists think, also refer to Jews who rejected Jesus. The same mistake is made by universalists who read a passage where it says that all people will be saved and think that it also refers to people who rejected Jesus. But this is not true, "all" refers to all people who have accepted Jesus.

A Jew who accepts Jesus will have his sins taken away, just as a Gentile will have his sins taken away if he accepts Jesus. For this promise applies to Jews and Gentiles, see Rom 10:12-13.
28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all.
God loves the Jews in the sense that he also offers them salvation as well as the whole world (John 3:16) and every Jew who accepts Jesus will receive the blessings of God, because the blessings of God for those who accept Jesus are irrevocable. But every Jew who rejects Jesus is hated by God, just like every Gentile who rejects Jesus. Because without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb 11:6).

Conclusion:
The Bible does not support the idea that the ethnic people of Israel are still God's people. Jesus clearly stated that the ethnic Jews have lost the kingdom of God (Matt 21:43) and will be given to a new people, which is the Christians. Paul says that Christians, whether ethnic Jew or Gentile, are the true children of Abraham and thus the heirs of the promises. (Gal 3:28-29). Paul says that Christians, whether ethnic Jew or Gentile, are the true Jews (Rom 2:28-29). Jesus calls the ethnic Jews who reject Him false Jews (Rev 2:9), because the true Jews are those who follow Him (John 8:39). The Bible does not support Zionism but replacement theology.

Praise be to Jesus.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Josh »

Lex, traditionally Anabaptists would adhere most closely to “replacement theology” - that is, once Christ came and offered salvation to all men, now there is neither Jew nor Greek. Anyone can be one of God’s people simply by accepting his offer of being grafted in.

Therefore, our focus is on spreading the gospel and desiring for all men everywhere to repent.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Bootstrap »

Lex wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:30 am Peace to you. Romans 11 is very often used by Zionists to prove that ethnic Israel is still God's people, but I will now show through a verse by verse explanation of the chapter that Romans 11 does not teach that ethnic Israel is still God's people but that their interpretation is wrong.
One of the main purposes of Romans was to teach Gentiles about their place, who come into the Kingdom by being grafted onto the vine of Israel. You see this in the entire book. And Paul is quite clear that there is no difference between Jew and Greek with respect to the Gospel.

At one point, the Jews were identical to the Kingdom. After Jesus, Gentiles are grafted into the Kingdom.
Last edited by Bootstrap on Wed Feb 28, 2024 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

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Lex wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 6:30 am The Bible does not support the idea that the ethnic people of Israel are still God's people. Jesus clearly stated that the ethnic Jews have lost the kingdom of God (Matt 21:43) and will be given to a new people, which is the Christians. Paul says that Christians, whether ethnic Jew or Gentile, are the true children of Abraham and thus the heirs of the promises. (Gal 3:28-29). Paul says that Christians, whether ethnic Jew or Gentile, are the true Jews (Rom 2:28-29). Jesus calls the ethnic Jews who reject Him false Jews (Rev 2:9), because the true Jews are those who follow Him (John 8:39). The Bible does not support Zionism but replacement theology.
No ethnicity is the Kingdom of God.

That includes Mennonite ethnicity too, fwiw.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Lex »

Many people don't know it, but the name Judas is equated with the Jews, source https://link.springer.com/referencework ... 6086-2_360. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

Judas and the Jews actually have things in common.

Judas was chosen by Jesus (John 6:70).
The Jews were chosen by God (Deut 7:6).

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (Matt 26:15).
The Jews betrayed God for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:13).

Judas regretted that he had betrayed Jesus (Matt 27:3).
The Jews regretted that they had betrayed Jesus (Luke 23:48).

Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26).
The Jews were replaced by the church (Matt 21:43).

It seems that I am not the first one who has noticed this. Because Augustine of Hippo said: "Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ."
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Josh »

I would appreciate it if you would draw a distinction between “ethnic Jew” and “those who explicitly reject Jesus Christ as the Messiah and God”. I believe the term “Jew” in both the NT and Patristic writings is used that way.

In the modern era, many different ethnic groups, including sadly a great deal of European peoples, reject Christ.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

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Lex wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:00 am Many people don't know it, but the name Judas is equated with the Jews, source https://link.springer.com/referencework ... 6086-2_360. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.

Judas and the Jews actually have things in common.

Judas was chosen by Jesus (John 6:70).
The Jews were chosen by God (Deut 7:6).

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (Matt 26:15).
The Jews betrayed God for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:13).

Judas regretted that he had betrayed Jesus (Matt 27:3).
The Jews regretted that they had betrayed Jesus (Luke 23:48).

Judas was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:26).
The Jews were replaced by the church (Matt 21:43).

It seems that I am not the first one who has noticed this. Because Augustine of Hippo said: "Judaism, since Christ, is a corruption; indeed, Judas is the image of the Jewish people: their understanding of Scripture is carnal; they bear the guilt for the death of the Savior, for through their fathers they have killed Christ."
The most apparent: They both start with a J, a capital J in fact.
Also-
1. Jealousy
2. Judgementalism
3. Junk food addiction
4. Jingoistic behavior
5. Jeopardizing actions
6. Junk theories
7. Jinxes
8. Jabbering
9. Jerking around
10. Jilted feelings
11. Junk food industry
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by Bootstrap »

Lex wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:00 am Many people don't know it, but the name Judas is equated with the Jews, source https://link.springer.com/referencework ... 6086-2_360. Is that a coincidence? I don't think so.
Nonsense.

James is the disciple whose name means Israel. Israel was the same person as Jacob, and the Greek form of Jacob is James.

Judah is just one of the 12 Tribes. Judas is the Greek form of Judah. Both derived from Yehudah (יהודה), "praised". There are other disciples whose names are the same as one of the 12 Tribes: James = Jacob, Levi = Levi, Simon = Simeon.
Lex wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:00 am Judas was chosen by Jesus (John 6:70).
The Jews were chosen by God (Deut 7:6).
Being chosen by God is not a bad thing. That's what all true believers have in common.
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.
All of the disciples were chosen. So are all true Christians from the very beginning. And according to Romans, so is Israel.

God grafted the Gentiles into the vine of Israel. He did not kill the vine that he grafted us into. And the gates of the heavenly Jerusalem also carry the names of the 12 Tribes of Israel. Why do you think that is?
Lex wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:00 amJudas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver (Matt 26:15).
The Jews betrayed God for 30 pieces of silver (Zech 11:13).
Nonsense. Have you read that chapter of Zechariah?

Two simple questions:

1. Who is paid 30 pieces of silver, by whom, and why?
2. Who throws this same money to the potter, and why?

A straightforward answer to those two questions will make it clear that it wasn't Israel.
This is what the Lord my God says: “Shepherd the flock marked for slaughter. Their buyers slaughter them and go unpunished. Those who sell them say, ‘Praise the Lord, I am rich!’ Their own shepherds do not spare them. For I will no longer have pity on the people of the land,” declares the Lord. “I will give everyone into the hands of their neighbors and their king. They will devastate the land, and I will not rescue anyone from their hands.”

So I shepherded the flock marked for slaughter, particularly the oppressed of the flock. Then I took two staffs and called one Favor and the other Union, and I shepherded the flock. In one month I got rid of the three shepherds.

The flock detested me, and I grew weary of them and said, “I will not be your shepherd. Let the dying die, and the perishing perish. Let those who are left eat one another’s flesh.”

Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations. It was revoked on that day, and so the oppressed of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word of the Lord.

I told them, “If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it.” So they paid me thirty pieces of silver.

And the Lord said to me, “Throw it to the potter”—the handsome price at which they valued me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them to the potter at the house of the Lord.

Then I broke my second staff called Union, breaking the family bond between Judah and Israel.
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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

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Re: Romans 11: Israel is still God's people?

Post by ohio jones »

Lex wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 10:00 am The Jews were replaced by the church (Matt 21:43).
Not quite. Bootstrap referenced the passage in Romans that addresses this. Only the unbelieving Jews were cut off. Believing Jews have always been part of the family of God, the bride of Christ, including the Apostles and Jews for Jesus throughout the centuries. Yes, they have been a minority, but believing Gentiles have also been a perpetual minority. All believers, Jew and Gentile alike, make up the church. Read Paul's letters if you are not convinced.
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