Israel is Babylon the Great

[Josh]

Your gaming history is tenacious at best, while he did create the first gaming platform, he had no control over what came from it and his game was hardly evil anymore then one of the guys who made a train.
You would do better to attack the computer as consoles are basically dedicated computers.

He also ignores that one if the most significant developers and popularizers of video game consoles was Nintendo, which was and is a Japanese company.

I vaguely recall someone back in the 1980s or 1990s claiming Tokyo was the Great Babylon.

[Josh]

If Jews controlled the world, you'd think things would be going better for Jews historically, or currently.

Things are going pretty well for them right now, wouldn’t you say? Palestinians aren’t doing so well in Gaza or in the West Bank, though.

It's fine to oppose Zionism politically, if you can do so without dipping into conspiracy theories about how the "Jews rule the world." But anti-Zionist conspiracy theories are inevitably antisemitic.

Of course, a deeper question is why the objection is “anti-semitism” as opposed to actually discussing whether the things claimed are true or false. (I think most of Lex’s claims didn’t hold water, although unfortunately his claims about pornographers are 100% true - OnlyFans, MindGeek, and others are owned by wealthy Jewish people. It’s very unfortunate this is the case but it’s not “anti semitic” to point it out.)

[Bootstrap]

It's fine to oppose Zionism politically, if you can do so without dipping into conspiracy theories about how the "Jews rule the world." But anti-Zionist conspiracy theories are inevitably antisemitic.

Of course, a deeper question is why the objection is “anti-semitism” as opposed to actually discussing whether the things claimed are true or false.

I think we need to do both. People are a whole lot more emotional than logical. That's why disinformation often works even when you disprove every fact - the very act of discussing it seriously can make it feel like these things might be true. Every one of these falsehoods has the same emotion behind it, and that emotion is often what sticks, that emotion is easier to grasp than all the detailed discussion of fact.

So in addition to discussing the facts, I think it's worth pointing out that this is an emotional campaign designed to make people feel. Hate crimes against Jews are rising in the United States. The people committing these hate crimes aren't taking time to read the Revelation in context or check the facts behind these claims. And there are plenty of people who don't commit violence but become prejudiced against Jewish people as a result of this stuff.

That's why it's worth pointing out that it is anti-Semitic.

[Lex]

I have provided clear evidence and you have not addressed a single one. And yes, I have read the entire Bible.

I don't think you have provided clear evidence. And I think reading in context is the best solution. I also think that your basic approach here is proof-texting in order to denounce Jews. I'm not sure that detailed discussion of the individual points is the best solution to that, but I'll address a few things one at a time.

Babylon sits seven hills, which are also seven kings (Revelation 17:9-14).

“This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

“The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

Rome sits on seven hills. Jerusalem does not.

And in Revelation 21:12, we see this:

It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel.

If the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written on the gates of the new heavenly Jerusalem, does that tell us that Israel plays a different role than Babylon in the Revelation?

These are just a few glaring things that become clear when reading the book as a whole, in context.

Proof 1:

1. Babylon is guilty of the blood of the prophets and of all the blood that was shed on earth: Revelation 18:24
2. Jerusalem is guilty of the blood of the prophets and of all the blood that was shed on earth: Matthew 23:35-37

Conclusion: Jerusalem is Babylon.

Try to tell that to the martyrs under Rome. The people who first read the Revelation were very aware of Rome's persecution of Christians.

1. The seven mountains of Revelation are to be understood symbolically and not literally. The seven mountains are seven kingdoms. In the Bible, mighty kingdoms are referred to as mountains, such as the Neo-Babylonian Empire (Jer 51:25). Here is an explanation of the seven mountains and the Antichrist: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6597

2. There is ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel, two different Israel (Gal 4:25-26). Ethnic Israel is Babylon that has broken the covenant and lost its relationship with God (Matt 21:43); spiritual Israel are the Christians (Gal 6:16). Revelation 21:12 refers to spiritual Israel, that is, the Christians.

[Josh]

I think we need to do both. People are a whole lot more emotional than logical. That's why disinformation often works even when you disprove every fact - the very act of discussing it seriously can make it feel like these things might be true. Every one of these falsehoods has the same emotion behind it, and that emotion is often what sticks, that emotion is easier to grasp than all the detailed discussion of fact.

Yet some things aren’t falsehoods. I don’t thing it’s wrong to notice that a particularly powerful subgroup of North America seems to control a lot of media and the modern day pornography movement. That doesn’t mean violence against every member of that subgroup is okay.

It is generally accepted in society to complain about how white people in America (or white men) have amassed an awful lot of wealth, power, control, ownership, etc - I don’t feel like this is any different. In fact, it’s good to start raising questions about these kind of inequities.

So in addition to discussing the facts, I think it's worth pointing out that this is an emotional campaign designed to make people feel. Hate crimes against Jews are rising in the United States. The people committing these hate crimes aren't taking time to read the Revelation in context or check the facts behind these claims. And there are plenty of people who don't commit violence but become prejudiced against Jewish people as a result of this stuff.

That's why it's worth pointing out that it is anti-Semitic.

I don’t think Lex is conducting an emotional campaign. Instead. He’s making all kinds of connections I don’t necessarily agree with based on his view of prophecy. I don’t see him justifying hate crimes either.

I don’t think “hate crimes” are somehow special. Violence is violence and is wrong. And people don’t engage in violence out of the blue because of truthful posts on an Internet forum.

[Josh]

2. There is ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel, two different Israel (Gal 4:25-26). Ethnic Israel is Babylon that has broken the covenant and lost its relationship with God; spiritual Israel are the Christians (Gal 6:16, Gal 4:25-26). Revelation 21:12 refers to spiritual Israel, that is, the Christians.

The Bible doesn’t refer to an ethnic Israel in the present day at all, and the NT is rather clear on really nothing being special about one ethnic group over another. There also isn’t any clear delineation of ethnic groups in prophecy.

Most of what you claim prophecy says about the modern day State of Israel could just as well be applied to Turkey and the Young Turks movement. I think it’s a big distraction from the message of Revelation. In the present era. There is neither Jew nor Greek - “Israel” is a country just like any other country. One with some good attributes and some bad attributes, just like every other country.

[MattY]

If Jews controlled the world, you'd think things would be going better for Jews historically, or currently.

Things are going pretty well for them right now, wouldn’t you say? Palestinians aren’t doing so well in Gaza or in the West Bank, though.

Not really.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/31/politics ... index.html

The Hamas attacks – a pogrom against Jews that killed 1,400, mostly civilians – have initiated a sequence of events that have left Jewish people around the world feeling threatened. And now that the Israeli government has sought retribution through air strikes and operations in Gaza targeting Hamas, the scenes of carnage in Palestinian communities threaten to further drain public sympathy for Israel abroad and, in some cases, contribute to an atmosphere that risks worsening harassment of Jewish people.

In the United States there is a climate of growing fear.

Jewish day schools have canceled classes. Synagogues have been locked. Social media has pulsated with hatred against Jews, leaving a community that can never escape its historic trauma yet again wondering where and when it can ever be safe.

Rising hate is tangible. The idea that Jewish Americans studying at Cornell University could so fear for their lives on their Ivy League campus in rural New York that they couldn’t even eat together in 2023 seems almost impossible to believe. Yet it’s the case after death threats were posted online. Tensions were already high after a Cornell professor said he was initially “exhilarated” over the Hamas attacks at a pro-Palestinian event because the group had changed the balance of power. He later apologized for his choice of words. Police Monday stepped up patrols and New York Gov. Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, traveled to campus to vow that “we will not tolerate threats, or hatred or antisemitism.” But a feeling of fear pervades Cornell, said Molly Goldstein, co-president of the Cornell Center for Jewish Living. “Jewish students on campus right now are unbelievably terrified for their lives,” she told CNN. “I never would have expected this to happen on my university campus.”

https://www.ajc.org/news/antisemitism-i ... ike-europe

While Americans have seen rising antisemitism in recent years, this level is uncharted territory. For Europeans, it is heartbreakingly familiar. Some of us have long warned that the antisemitism in Europe would cross the Atlantic and land on American shores. Seeing that gloomy prediction fulfilled has been profoundly depressing.

But even for Europe, the sheer intensity and quantity of antisemitic incidents and violence is new. In Germany, there was a 240% increase year-over-year in antisemitic incidents the week after Oct. 7. The situation in the U.K. and France, where I live, is even worse.

According to CST, a British Jewish security organization, in the month after Oct. 7, antisemitic incidents in Britain more than quintupled year-over-year, the highest level ever reported. In London, antisemitic incidents jumped 1,350% between Oct. 1 and Oct. 18 compared to the same period last year.

In France, more than 1,500 antisemitic attacks occurred in the month after Oct. 7.

But it’s not just the quantity of antisemitism — it’s the pride with which it’s expressed. It is as if the horrific pogrom in Israel has unleashed a sleeping hate. A video recently went viral of passengers on the Paris Métro chanting, “F— the Jews and f— your mother, long live Palestine, we are Nazis and proud of it.”

These antisemites have no shame and no fear of consequences. How could Jews not be afraid? Jews now conceal their identity, removing mezuzahs from their doors and hiding their Jewishness.

A call from a friend in Israel, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor, resonated deeply with me. After Oct. 7, she considered seeking refuge in Berlin, but the explosion of antisemitism in Germany changed her mind. Instead of joining her children in Berlin, she warned them not to speak Hebrew in public.

This virus of antisemitism has spread to the U.S., where college campuses and city streets have been taken over by anti-Israel protesters raging, “From the river to the sea!” — a call for the mass murder of Israelis, and “Globalize the Intifada!” — an appeal to kill Jews worldwide.

[Soloist]

1. The seven mountains of Revelation are to be understood symbolically and not literally. The seven mountains are seven kingdoms. In the Bible, mighty kingdoms are referred to as mountains, such as the Neo-Babylonian Empire (Jer 51:25). Here is an explanation of the seven mountains and the Antichrist: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6597

2. There is ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel, two different Israel (Gal 4:25-26). Ethnic Israel is Babylon that has broken the covenant and lost its relationship with God (Matt 21:43); spiritual Israel are the Christians (Gal 6:16). Revelation 21:12 refers to spiritual Israel, that is, the Christians.

You see the primary problem is that you’re making these claims that your view is correct. You’re not presenting this as a possibility. How do you know that it’s not actually exactly referring to mountains such as Rome?
Many people have expressed exactly like you saying they know exactly how it’s going to happen saying they know exactly what these verses mean only to be shown wrong later.

[MattY]

It's fine to oppose Zionism politically, if you can do so without dipping into conspiracy theories about how the "Jews rule the world." But anti-Zionist conspiracy theories are inevitably antisemitic.

Of course, a deeper question is why the objection is “anti-semitism” as opposed to actually discussing whether the things claimed are true or false. (I think most of Lex’s claims didn’t hold water, although unfortunately his claims about pornographers are 100% true - OnlyFans, MindGeek, and others are owned by wealthy Jewish people. It’s very unfortunate this is the case but it’s not “anti semitic” to point it out.)

Lumping Jews into a group and blaming them for pornography and everything else that Lex does is absolutely antisemitic. So is blaming Jews for what Israel does. Bad things done by bad people, or bad things owned by bad people, are the fault of the individuals who do or own those things, or the individuals in those institutions who did them. Their ethnicity has zip all to do with it, and bringing it up is pointless. Lex is repeating classic antisemitic tropes.

[Josh]

It's fine to oppose Zionism politically, if you can do so without dipping into conspiracy theories about how the "Jews rule the world." But anti-Zionist conspiracy theories are inevitably antisemitic.

Of course, a deeper question is why the objection is “anti-semitism” as opposed to actually discussing whether the things claimed are true or false. (I think most of Lex’s claims didn’t hold water, although unfortunately his claims about pornographers are 100% true - OnlyFans, MindGeek, and others are owned by wealthy Jewish people. It’s very unfortunate this is the case but it’s not “anti semitic” to point it out.)

Lumping Jews into a group and blaming them for pornography and everything else that Lex does is absolutely antisemitic. So is blaming Jews for what Israel does. Bad things done by bad people, or bad things owned by bad people, are the fault of the individuals who do or own those things, or the individuals in those institutions who did them. Their ethnicity has zip all to do with it, and bringing it up is pointless. Lex is repeating classic antisemitic tropes.

Is it antisemitic to notice that the people who run the major pornography empires are Jewish? Or is it forbidden to notice or talk about that?

As far as the events of October 6, that wasn’t an antisemitic attack. Israel is a far more powerful country than Gaza, and far more Gazan civilians have died. The reason Hamas attacked Israel is because Israel is the one that surrounds them on all sides (including controlling the southern border).

Overall, I’d say Jews in America are doing quite well. They can live as free of violence as other Americans can. They are well represented in Congress and on the Supreme Court. They are wealthier than the average American. They are much more represented in higher education. If anything, America is one of the most pro-Semitic countries that has ever existed.

None of this means violence is okay.