Why Some Churches Practice Infant Baptism and others do not.

[Soloist]

I'm no Pacifist. I just believe in fighting only God's wars by His direct command, not any human intermediaries claiming to speak for God.

[barnhart]

I see a link between the choice to march to war and to baptize babies. Both are not comfortable with allowing the free will of others and wish to rule over them to produce the "correct" outcome.

[Soloist]

I see a link between the choice to march to war and to baptize babies. Both are not comfortable with allowing the free will of others and wish to rule over them to produce the "correct" outcome.

Well assuming the Catholic church could accept adult baptism, they were then annoyed over this not fighting the Turks thing... next they worried these radicals were going to replace them as God's faithful and then got full on angry that they wouldn't swear an oath of loyalty to any man.

The reformers naturally assumed anyone who annoyed the Catholics was an ally until they realized this adult baptism, impacted allegiance too to their own church. Next they found out the whole invading Turks thing as well as invading Catholics... and they wouldn't give any oath of allegiance!

Next thing you know, the reformers and the Catholics are hunting people who pray before eating.

[Ernie]

Next thing you know, the reformers and the Catholics are hunting people who pray before eating.

I don't know about this anecdote. Could you enlighten us?

[Ernie]

I see a link between the choice to march to war and to baptize babies. Both are not comfortable with allowing the free will of others and wish to rule over them to produce the "correct" outcome.

And another similarity is that both rely on there being no explicit prohibition on either. The New Testament instructs us what to do in these matters and God didn't see a need to get an explicit prohibition on record.

I think this tells us a bit about God.
God gives enough clear evidence for us to know that He exists and that He created the world, if we want to believe. But he does not force himself on us, and He has hidden himself sufficiently, that we could find reason to dis-believe if we wish. Someday every knee will bow, but not right now.

I think the same is true with matters like infant baptism, going to war, and self-defense.
Jesus gave clear enough instructions and an example for us that anyone who wants to follow him and chooses to follow him can know how He wants us to live. But He does not force Himself upon anyone who is looking for loopholes to justify disobedience to His clear teaching and example.

[Soloist]

Next thing you know, the reformers and the Catholics are hunting people who pray before eating.

I don't know about this anecdote. Could you enlighten us?

Its in the Martyrs Mirror... that narrows it down a lot I know...

The story from what I remember involved two men in a tavern or roadside lodging of some kind and they prayed before eating their meal. Observed by I believe Täuferjäger or whatever the Catholic called them, they were captured.

It was slightly tongue and cheek, but the Anabaptists were known for being pious and it was a way to identify them. Those who suddenly started living in holiness and trying to treat others kindly and fair were under suspicion of being Anabaptists.

[MaxPC]

I see a link between the choice to march to war and to baptize babies. Both are not comfortable with allowing the free will of others and wish to rule over them to produce the "correct" outcome.

And another similarity is that both rely on there being no explicit prohibition on either. The New Testament instructs us what to do in these matters and God didn't see a need to get an explicit prohibition on record.

I think this tells us a bit about God.
God gives enough clear evidence for us to know that He exists and that He created the world, if we want to believe. But he does not force himself on us, and He has hidden himself sufficiently, that we could find reason to dis-believe if we wish. Someday every knee will bow, but not right now.

I think the same is true with matters like infant baptism, going to war, and self-defense.
Jesus gave clear enough instructions and an example for us that anyone who wants to follow him and chooses to follow him can know how He wants us to live. But He does not force Himself upon anyone who is looking for loopholes to justify disobedience to His clear teaching and example.

Agreed and amen. As the RCC interprets it, there are no explicit instructions against infant baptism either. Matthew 28:18-20 states that Jesus commanded His apostles to baptise all people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox likewise interprets it similarly.

The RCC definition of baptism is a sacrament that imparts God's grace upon the recipient. While the infant is too young to make a decision regarding faith, the parents extend their faith in God on the child's behalf just as Jesus healed the centurion's servant because of the faith of the centurion (Mark 2:3-5); Jesus exorcised a child's unclean spirit because of the father's faith that his child could be healed (Mark 9:22-25).

I am old enough to realise that sparring with Bible verses is not truly productive for anyone except those who are sparring. It does send one back to the Bible to explore the context and verses and in my perspective, that is always a good thing, even if the interpretation of one differs from another. Prayer and time provides the insight.

[ohio jones]

Next thing you know, the reformers and the Catholics are hunting people who pray before eating.

I don't know about this anecdote. Could you enlighten us?

Its in the Martyrs Mirror... that narrows it down a lot I know...

The story from what I remember involved two men in a tavern or roadside lodging of some kind and they prayed before eating their meal. Observed by I believe Täuferjäger or whatever the Catholic called them, they were captured.

It was slightly tongue and cheek, but the Anabaptists were known for being pious and it was a way to identify them. Those who suddenly started living in holiness and trying to treat others kindly and fair were under suspicion of being Anabaptists.

Veit Grünberger and Veit Schecht: Martyr's Mirror and GAMEO.

I've been in the dungeon in Schloß Mittersill where they were imprisoned.

[MaxPC]

I've been in the dungeon in Schloß Mittersill where they were imprisoned.

As a visitor or a resident?

[silentreader]

I see a link between the choice to march to war and to baptize babies. Both are not comfortable with allowing the free will of others and wish to rule over them to produce the "correct" outcome.

And another similarity is that both rely on there being no explicit prohibition on either. The New Testament instructs us what to do in these matters and God didn't see a need to get an explicit prohibition on record.

I think this tells us a bit about God.
God gives enough clear evidence for us to know that He exists and that He created the world, if we want to believe. But he does not force himself on us, and He has hidden himself sufficiently, that we could find reason to dis-believe if we wish. Someday every knee will bow, but not right now.

I think the same is true with matters like infant baptism, going to war, and self-defense.
Jesus gave clear enough instructions and an example for us that anyone who wants to follow him and chooses to follow him can know how He wants us to live. But He does not force Himself upon anyone who is looking for loopholes to justify disobedience to His clear teaching and example.

Agreed and amen. As the RCC interprets it, there are no explicit instructions against infant baptism either. Matthew 28:18-20 states that Jesus commanded His apostles to baptise all people in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox likewise interprets it similarly.

The RCC definition of baptism is a sacrament that imparts God's grace upon the recipient. While the infant is too young to make a decision regarding faith, the parents extend their faith in God on the child's behalf just as Jesus healed the centurion's servant because of the faith of the centurion (Mark 2:3-5); Jesus exorcised a child's unclean spirit because of the father's faith that his child could be healed (Mark 9:22-25).

I am old enough to realise that sparring with Bible verses is not truly productive for anyone except those who are sparring. It does send one back to the Bible to explore the context and verses and in my perspective, that is always a good thing, even if the interpretation of one differs from another. Prayer and time provides the insight.

Matthew 28:18-20 (NCB)

Matthew 28:18-20
New Catholic Bible
18 Then Jesus approached them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the world.”