Poll: Faith Traditions that Profess Christianity

[Josh]

Evangelicals would ordain women but perhaps in a "restrained" way (perhaps not to lead pastor, for example).

Theological Conservatives don't ordain women at all.

Then we need to say Anabaptist (Conservative Evangelical) because many Evangelicals support women as lead pastors.

But "conservative" doesn't work because there are many Pentecostal churches with women lead pastors.

So then we are down to "theological conservative" which is what the poll option says.

So yes, "non-Plain, Theological Conservatives" refers to any Anabaptist church that does not allow women as pastors or lead pastors.

Evangelicals are a fundamentally different thing than Mainline Protestants, though. And this distinction would hold in Anabaptist spaces too.

An example of the former would be Lancaster Conference / LMC or Evana, an example of the latter would be Virginia Conference of MC USA.

[Neto]

I have not responded to the poll, because the classifications follow only the Swiss Brethren tradition, excluding Dutch Mennonites altogether, all the way back to Menno Simons. I would also suggest that it is actually following a later preoccupation in Swiss Brethren circles with the use of "outward appearances". (Like a specific style of dress, for both male & female. But I am not referring to things like the veiling.) I am not criticizing this approach, and nor is this an appeal to change anyone's standards for practice, just saying that people of my heritage do not fit anywhere here. (I'm reminded of the time, way back when I first got to know non-Dutch Mennonites for the first time, a discussion of what would be a good symbol of "Mennonite culture". I mentioned the zwiebach as a symbol of the survival of our people, and the Deitsch people looked at me with blank looks - they didn't even know what I was talking about. I did not realize that this bread is only made in the Plautdietsch culture, not at all in the PA Deitsch culture.)

I'm not entirely sure I'd agree with zweibach as a symbol either. Holdemans are largely a Russian Mennonite group in background, although they accepted Swiss Brethren, Lutherans, and a variety of other people as well. Yet zweibach is extinct (my in laws don't know what it is or care about it), at least in the U.S.; perhaps some people in Canada know what it is. On the flip side, everyone in my congregation gets excited about making pepper nuts (Pfeffernusse) at Christmastime - even the Swiss background people. In other circles I've never seen pepper nuts at all.

It is definitely true, however, that the Dutch Anabaptist background means much less focus on "dress issues". Holdemans don't even generally think of themselves as "plain people" or "conservative", even though by any practical definition, they are.

Also, some terms have been used in a sense different from common usage, such as "Mainline". In the way this term is normally used (or at least in the past - maybe I have not kept up with changes), it refers only to the old Protestant denominations, which in my somewhat more fuzzy understanding would require the practice of infant baptism, and possibly also more-than-symbolic views of the bread & the wine in communion.

It is a novel term I think Ernie invented (or maybe I did), but I like it too. We can identify people in Mennonite churches that are basically identical to the mainline Protestant Methodist church down the street. We should call these people Anabaptists (Mainline). Likewise, we can identify ones that are progressive, just like the progressive Methodist church across town. We should call them Anabaptists (Progressive-Liberal). And then we can identify Mennonite churches that seem very much like an evangelical church. We should call them Anabaptists (Evangelical).

I do think a distinction should be made for Anabaptists (Theological-Conservative), who definitely do exist as a distinct thing. The Theological-Conservative (like Rosedale / CMC) wouldn't ordain women, but the Evangelical (LMC / Lancaster Conference), Progressive-Liberal (MC USA Central District Conference), and Mainline (MC USA Virginia Conference) all would.

Now, let's ask the question if these categories Ernie proposed fit Russian Mennonite / Dutch Anabaptist background people. I think they can:

Anabaptist (Progressive-Liberal) - yes, MC USA Central District Conference has a large Russian Mennonite background

Anabaptist (Mainline) - yes, Canadian Conference of MBs ordain women, but do not accept LGBT marriage/ordinations

Anabaptist (Evangelical) - yes, some U.S. MBs are essentially evangelical in orientation (particularly the "mega church" style ones)

Anabaptist (non-Plain Theological Conservative) - I don't actually know of any Russian Mennonite background groups that align neatly with the philosophy that prevails in Rosedale / CMC. I am reasonably certain it would exist though, probably amongst U.S. MB background people.

Anabaptist (Plain Conservative) - Holdemans would be an obvious example of this. Kleine Gemeinde (Oklahoma / Texas) would be another.

Anabaptist (Old Order) - Old Colonists would be an obvious example of this.

Of note is that Dutch Anabaptists who persist today often were organised along very ethnic lines, so you have Chortitzers, Molosch, Polsch, and others. Amongst Holdemans the Russian Mennonite background is basically Polsch and Molosch and these groups tended not to intermarry until around 40-50 years ago. There may be significant cultural differences between them that persist to this day.

I do not know what the current policy or practice is in the US MB conference, as I am very much out of touch with that whole "world", ever since leaving for the mission work in Brazil (1985). I do know that one of the main reasons for the separation of the North American MB Conference into the current US and Canada conferences was over the issue of women in the ministry - the majority of the Canadian delegates wanted it and the US delegate majority did not. There was, however, controversy within the States during that time as well. That was 1991 as I recall. That's a long time ago, and so the US conference may have changed the policy on that issue by now. (I do consider myself to be a traditional MB in terms of doctrine and practice, but while there may be individual MB congregations that fit that description, there is no such organisation - the MB conference has not divided into these separate groups.)

As concerns the diverse ethnic lines within the "Russian" Mennonites in the US, I would surmise that the general loss of Plautdietsch, has lead to a great deal of blurring of these old differences. The cultural distinctives also fade as acculturation increases. Where old differences may be most persistent would be, I think, things like fine points of ordination practices - the more "ceremonial" aspects of church life. Canadian Mennonites, MBs included, typically have a much more recent tie with the colony life, so while they are more 'liberal' in some areas of doctrine and practice, they tend to be more traditional culturally, and many still speak Plautdietsch. (Most US Mennonites are from the early migrations, which largely ended by the late 1800's, where as the later emigrants went to Canada or several South American countries. The areas in Canada where they settled were also much more isolated than was the case here in the States, so they did not experience the pressures to assimilate that were brought to bear on those who settled in the States. A major difference in this respect is the participation of the US in the two wars against Germany.

But again, I do not want to hijack this thread, and I'm really edging into that already.

[Neto]

Evangelicals are a fundamentally different thing than Mainline Protestants, though.
....

I may have an incorrect concept of what a "Mainline Protestant" designation entails. I think of the following groups as fitting that description, Lutheran and Reformed groups, and to some extent the groups that came out of those traditions. Generally, I would include only infant baptizers in that category, but not groups like the Evangelical Free (which, as I understand, came out of the Lutheran church), because they do not baptize infants, and have an 'Evangelical" understanding of the Eucharist.

I do not know enough about the Methodists and Presbyterians to confidently classify them, although I also think of them as Mainline Protestant.

[Ernie]

I do not want to create a diversion in this thread, nor do i wish to start another discussion about the Matthew passage in respect to divorce and remarriage, but that passage is understood by Menno Simons as allowing remarriage in the case of persistent and unrepentant adultery. (Whereas the Swiss Brethren position, at least as it has been "back-described" - meaning I have not seen any writings from the early period that speak to this question, only current era statements that it was such-and-so - do not make any such concession or provision.)

Another major difference is that the church governance in at least the MB conference is markedly different than that of any Swiss Brethren background congregation to which I have been exposed (admittedly, almost entirely Beach Amish-Mennonite and its off-shoots, of which our congregation is an example). I also do not know how far this goes back in even the MB history, let alone in the larger "Russian Mennonite" fold. (However, I suspect that the early MBs - which started in 1860 - were a bit more like your typical top-down authority structure, with some mix of congregationalism. Then I would also suspect that the Colony Gross Gemeinde was basically purely authoritarian, like the typical Amish-Mennonite congregations here in Holmes County, but this is not something I have studied in particular.)

I don't disagree with your point that there are differences between Dutch and Swiss/German as you detail above. However, like Josh, I think there are Dutch and Swiss/German entities that span the same spectrum. Josh wants to divide what I think of as Theological Conservatives into two groups and that is fair. For this poll, I think we'll keep including them together.

But to continue the discussion,
Can anybody say whether the [Anabaptist (non-Plain Theological Conservatives)] and the [Anabaptist (Conservative Evangelicals)] exchange pulpits? or are they different constituencies?

[Josh]

Some CMC congregations definitely would invite other evangelical preachers to come in and preach. They will also engage with other evangelical mission programmes etc

[Neto]

....
But to continue the discussion,
Can anybody say whether the [Anabaptist (non-Plain Theological Conservatives)] and the [Anabaptist (Conservative Evangelicals)] exchange pulpits? or are they different constituencies?

To what degree is this a factor in determining the "borders" between different categories? (I ask partly because the "openness" of the early MBs to informal fellowship with other Christians was one of the things that the Gross Gemeinde used to attempt to deny their identity as "Mennonite", hoping to deprive them of the "previlegio", and also force them out of the colonies. The first was of course the most serious threat, because they would have then been immediately taken for military service in the Czarist army.)

[Ken]

I may have an incorrect concept of what a "Mainline Protestant" designation entails.

Well, according to Wiki (and I don't know how universal this definition is):

The mainline Protestant churches (sometimes also known as oldline Protestants) are a group of Protestant denominations in the United States and in some cases in Canada largely of the theologically liberal or theologically progressive persuasion that contrast in history and practice with the largely theologically conservative Evangelical, Fundamentalist, Charismatic, Confessional, Confessing Movement, historically Black church, and Global South Protestant denominations and congregations. Some make a distinction between "mainline" and "oldline", with the former referring only to denominational ties and the latter referring to church lineage, prestige and influence.[9] However, this distinction has largely been lost to history and the terms are now nearly synonymous.

Mainline Protestant churches have stressed social justice and personal salvation, and both politically and theologically, tend to be more liberal than non-mainline Protestant churches. Mainline Protestant churches share a common approach that often leads to collaboration in organizations such as the National Council of Churches, and because of their involvement with the ecumenical movement, they are sometimes given the alternative label of "ecumenical Protestantism" (especially outside the United States). While in 1970 the mainline Protestant churches claimed most Protestants and more than 30 percent of the American population as members, as of 2009 they are a minority among American Protestants, claiming approximately 15 percent of American adults. Some have criticized the term mainline for its alleged White Anglo-Saxon Protestant ethnocentric and elitist assumptions, and its erroneous association with the term "mainstream", since the term mainline almost exclusively described White, non-fundamentalist and non-evangelical Protestant Americans from its origin to the late twentieth century.

. . .

The largest mainline churches are sometimes referred to as the "Seven Sisters of American Protestantism," a term apparently coined by William Hutchison. The "Seven Sisters" are:

• United Methodist Church (UMC) is the largest mainline Protestant denomination among the "Seven Sisters" with 5.7 million members in the United States in 2021.
• Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) is the second largest mainline denomination with approximately 2.9 million members and 8,600 congregations at the end of 2022.
• Episcopal Church (TEC) is third largest, with 1.6 million active baptized members, of whom 1.4 million members are located in the United States in 2022.
• Presbyterian Church (USA) (PC-USA) is the fourth largest mainline denomination, with 1.1 million active members in 8,700 congregations (2021).
• American Baptist Churches USA (ABC-USA) is fifth in size, with approximately 1.1 million members (2017).
• United Church of Christ (UCC) is the sixth and has about 710,000 members in 2022.
• Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) (DOC) is the seventh and has about 278,000 members as of 2022.

MCUSA is now considered Mainline as are the Quakers and Church of the Brethren but not most other Anabaptist groups. The American (northern) Baptists are, but not the Southern Baptists, etc.

I would suggest that some denominations are split down the middle with some churches or conference on each side of the line.

[Ernie]

....
But to continue the discussion,
Can anybody say whether the [Anabaptist (non-Plain Theological Conservatives)] and the [Anabaptist (Conservative Evangelicals)] exchange pulpits? or are they different constituencies?

To what degree is this a factor in determining the "borders" between different categories? (I ask partly because the "openness" of the early MBs to informal fellowship with other Christians was one of the things that the Gross Gemeinde used to attempt to deny their identity as "Mennonite", hoping to deprive them of the "previlegio", and also force them out of the colonies. The first was of course the most serious threat, because they would have then been immediately taken for military service in the Czarist army.)

I consider an Anabaptist constituency to be one in which ministers share pulpit and churches cooperate in Bible schools, day schools, local mission efforts, etc. If groups feel a need to distance themselves from particular congregations or groups, then that means they are part of a different constituency.

[Ernie]

Where are all the Catholics and Protestants and people who want to be EO?

[MaxPC]

There are Anabaptist kingdom Christians, Church of Christ kingdom Christians, Followers of the Way kingdom Christians, etc.
Anabaptist kingdom Christians can check one of those choices.

A lovely selection of rooms in the Father's house. John 14:2