Vatican Shakeup

General Christian Theology
User avatar
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 8522
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Vatican Shakeup

Post by Robert »

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/07/ ... uscle.html
If the pope intends to keep removing conservative thinkers from the Vatican’s inner ranks, he might find there is a price to pay for imposing his socialist agenda on an institution that has, after all, gotten along for more than 2,000 years without him.
Interesting.
0 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14439
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Bootstrap »

I suspect trying to render judgement on some other denomination's inner politics is generally a bad idea.

This is the only paragraph that seems to give any details about the opinion writer's concerns about what the Pope has said:
But the pope, despite his sweet smile and crowd-pleasing talk about making the Catholic Church more tolerant and focused on the poor, has created a serious division among the faithful. His suggestions that affluent Catholics give away their money, or that capitalism is a sin don’t wear well with some in the United States, which is by far the largest financial contributor to the Church’s coffers.
Might be interesting to explore what he is saying about wealth and poverty, and discuss what is biblical and what is not. Here is one starting point found on the Vatican site:

Wealth and Poverty
It is at this point, the Pope explained, that “Paul, with his thoughts, reaches the bedrock of what we can call ‘the theology of poverty’ and why poverty is at the heart of the Gospel”. The Epistle reads: “For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich”. Thus, “it was the very Word of God made flesh, the Word of God in this condescendence, in this humbling himself, in this impoverishing himself, for us, to make us rich in the gifts of salvation, of the word, of grace”. This “is the very core of the theology of poverty”, which, after all, is seen again in the first Beatitude: “Blessed are the poor in spirit”. Francis emphasized: “being poor is allowing yourself to be enriched by the poverty of Christ and not wanting a wealth of other treasures which are not those of Christ, it is doing what Christ did”. It is not only becoming poor, but is going “even a step further”, because, he said, “the poor enrich me”.

Turning to the concrete nature of everyday life, the Pope explained that “when we give help to the poor, we do not do acts of charity in a Christian manner”. This is a “good” act, a “human” act, but “this is not the Christian poverty that Paul wants, that Paul preaches”. Because Christian poverty means “that I give of my own and not from excess”, even from my basic necessities, “to the poor, for I know that they enrich me”. And why do the poor enrich me? “Because Jesus said that he himself is in the poor”.

Paul alludes to the same concept when he writes: “Our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich”. This happens “each time I strip myself of something, but not only of the excess, to give to a poor person, to a poor community, to so many poor people who lack everything”, because “the poor enrich me” insomuch as “it is Jesus who acts in him”.

This is because, Francis concluded, poverty “is not an ideology”. Poverty “is at the heart of the Gospel”. In the “theology of poverty” we find “the mystery of Christ who lowered himself, humbled himself, impoverished himself, to enrich us”. Thus it is understood “why the first of the Beatitudes is: ‘Blessed are the poor in spirit’”. And “being poor in spirit”, the Pontiff continued, means “going on this path of the Lord”, who “so humbled himself” as to become “bread for us” in the Eucharistic sacrifice. Jesus “continuously lowers himself in the history of the Church, in the memorial of his passion, in the memorial of his humiliation, in the memorial of his lowering, in the memorial of his poverty, and of this ‘bread’, he enriches us”.

The Pope then prayed: “That the Lord enable us to understand the path of Christian poverty and the attitude that we must have when we help the poor”.
What do you think? What parts of this are biblically sound? Are there places where he seems to go overboard? Is he advocating the same thing as the Doctrine of Non-Accumulation that some Anabaptists believe in, or is he advocating less? What exactly is the biblical teaching on these things?
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
User avatar
Robert
Site Janitor
Posts: 8522
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 4:16 pm
Affiliation: Anabaptist

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Robert »

Bootstrap wrote:I suspect trying to render judgement on some other denomination's inner politics is generally a bad idea.
Seems this author speaks from a base of knowledge.
John Moody is Executive Vice President, Executive Editor for Fox News. A former Rome bureau chief for Time magazine, he is the author of four books including "Pope John Paul II : Biography."
I see no one rendering judgement. I posted it because I find it interesting that even the RC church is wrestling with these same issues.
Poverty is at the heart of the Gospel
I think this is a real hard, counter-cultural thing for a capitalist dominated society to wrestle with.

I think that if we become absolutists with this concept, then all Christians most give up their wealth to the church and live in poverty. They then become takers instead of givers since they must rely on the church to care for them. We have seen how humans have corrupted this and how it can not hold up, as we are.

I see this as the goal, but not something reachable. I see this as a concept to keep our connection to our wealth in balance, but not a sustainable concept.

I would word it differently. I think self-sacrifice is the heart of the Gospel.
1 x
Try hard not to offend. Try harder not to be offended.
Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they are not after you.
I think I am funnier than I really am.
User avatar
Bootstrap
Posts: 14439
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:59 am
Affiliation: Mennonite

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Bootstrap »

Robert wrote:I see no one rendering judgement. I posted it because I find it interesting that even the RC church is wrestling with these same issues.
I'm happy to see a church wrestling with what Jesus and Paul taught about wealth and poverty. We often ignore these passages entirely because they make us uncomfortable. I suspect that importing modern political and economic terms like capitalist or socialist make it harder for us to understand the original text, which wasn't about these modern political issues.
0 x
Is it biblical? Is it Christlike? Is it loving? Is it true? How can I find out?
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Sudsy »

Firstly, this article from Fox New is an opinion and I don't know how much of it is based on truth or suspicion and if this Catholic site has worded what the Pope said accurately but I will comment on the words written in the post Bootstrap gave that were believed to be the Pope's.

My first read through made me wonder just how far this poverty pursuit should be taken. Should this apply to selling off the billions of dollars of lands and buildings that some Christians have access to and giving that money to the poor ? Is this becoming poor a pursuit that all Christians should pursue and especially leaders in a Christian church to set a good example ?

If all Christians were to literally follow Jesus as in His 3 or so years of ministry, we would have no Christians with monies to give to the poor except for new converts that had not yet given everything away. And I take it that we should not depend on any government assistance in our choosing to be poor as these funds primarily come from those who are not poor.

I agree that the becoming poor that is referred to in NT scripture is 'poor in spirit' referring more to being humble and dependent on God for our spiritual food and guidance. I do not see the path a Christian must take is one of pursuing poverty. I do agree that much of our giving to help the poor is not taking from our necessities to survive. I further believe much of our giving goes back into our own comforts of church life in most NA churches.

Poverty is linked with the Gospel but imo, it is spiritual poverty. When we see how poor we are spiritually without Christ, we turn to Him and He gives us life abundantly in the Spirit. Whether rich or poor in this world's goods, it is the focus on becoming spiritually rich in Christ that is most important, imo.
1 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
MattY
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:36 pm
Location: Ohio
Affiliation: Beachy
Contact:

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by MattY »

Bootstrap wrote:
Robert wrote:I see no one rendering judgement. I posted it because I find it interesting that even the RC church is wrestling with these same issues.
I'm happy to see a church wrestling with what Jesus and Paul taught about wealth and poverty. We often ignore these passages entirely because they make us uncomfortable. I suspect that importing modern political and economic terms like capitalist or socialist make it harder for us to understand the original text, which wasn't about these modern political issues.
The pope makes it about modern political issues when he criticizes capitalism, free markets, libertarianism, etc. - he seems to be the one importing those issues into the text. Because of that, it's understandable that people read political overtones into some things that he says with this theme.

The most obvious thing that jumps out as incorrect from the Catholic site is the discussion of Christ continuously becoming "bread" in the Eucharistic "sacrifice" to enrich us in that manner. Christ was sacrificed "once for all", and that is sufficient - by that one offering he has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. A continuously repeated sacrifice is unnecessary and unbiblical. But that might be a side issue.

I agree with Sudsy's take on it.

The statement about poverty being "the heart of the gospel" seems to un-specific to me. The heart of the gospel is the atoning death and resurrection of Christ, by which we are freed from the guilt and power of sin. Our response to the gospel is vertical and horizontal: Vertical, with adoration and devotion to God and His Son Jesus Christ; horizontally, flowing out of the vertical response, is self-sacrificial love toward others, which is not of ourselves but by the grace of Christ. This is manifested in ways like helping the poor. I think that last part is what the Pope is trying to get at by his "theology of poverty", but he seems to be inverting the order - standing it on its head. That can lead to imbalances like demanding an ascetic lifestyle, or making the gospel consist of social activism, where the social gospel and liberation theology are accepted.

It reminds me of an article I read called, "The spiritual poverty of the Anabaptist vision." One might also consider "the spiritual poverty of the gospel of poverty". What does it have to say about sin and the need for personal salvation?
https://zwickaupress.files.wordpress.co ... ntaman.pdf
0 x
Almighty, most holy God
Faithful through the ages
Almighty, most holy Lord
Glorious, almighty God
User avatar
Josh
Posts: 23808
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:23 pm
Location: 1000' ASL
Affiliation: The church of God

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Josh »

Like it or not, capitalism, "free markets", libertarianism, and "competition" aren't exactly the kingdom of heaven, and it baffles me how so many sincere Christian people have confused a capitalist political agenda with Christianity.

Jesus did not come to Institute an economic and political system to make everybody as wealthy as possible. Instead, he said the rich will have a very difficult time to enter the kingdom of heaven.
0 x
MattY
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 5:36 pm
Location: Ohio
Affiliation: Beachy
Contact:

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by MattY »

Josh wrote:Like it or not, capitalism, "free markets", libertarianism, and "competition" aren't exactly the kingdom of heaven, and it baffles me how so many sincere Christian people have confused a capitalist political agenda with Christianity.

Jesus did not come to Institute an economic and political system to make everybody as wealthy as possible. Instead, he said the rich will have a very difficult time to enter the kingdom of heaven.
That's all true. I don't support extolling wealthy job creators as some sort of virtuous heroes, as often happens on the right. I'm not a libertarian, nor a right-wing populist (the type that complains about "welfare queens" taking his money).

That doesn't mean capitalism doesn't work or that libertarianism is wrong necessarily, or that free markets are bad for the poor. Jesus didn't say which economic theory is correct or tell the government how to run the economy. My own view is that a free market with regulations (to prevent abuse) and a social safety net (with proper incentives to help the poor) is the best. It's hard to argue against the evidence that market economies have helped millions rise out of poverty, far more than socialism. The Pope should absolutely warn against greed and call for Christian charity for the poor and needy, but should leave economics to economists.
1 x
Almighty, most holy God
Faithful through the ages
Almighty, most holy Lord
Glorious, almighty God
Sudsy
Posts: 5854
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:32 pm
Affiliation: .

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by Sudsy »

buckeyematt2 wrote: It reminds me of an article I read called, "The spiritual poverty of the Anabaptist vision." One might also consider "the spiritual poverty of the gospel of poverty". What does it have to say about sin and the need for personal salvation?
https://zwickaupress.files.wordpress.co ... ntaman.pdf
Thankyou for this link. This really addressed some of my concerns regarding some Anabaptist focus and was written by someone "thoroughly schooled in Anabaptist vision". This might be the kind of article that we should find high on our discussions as an Anabaptist forum. Could make a great thread.
0 x
Pursuing a Kingdom life in the Spirit
MaxPC
Posts: 9044
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:09 pm
Location: Former full time RVers
Affiliation: PlainRomanCatholic
Contact:

Re: Vatican Shakeup

Post by MaxPC »

When I saw the title "Vatican Shakeup" I laughed so hard my wife came in to check on me.

Those personnel shifts and changes are always happening at the Vatican. The balancing act between conservatives and progressives is ongoing under every Pope. Nothing new, nothing worth working up a head of steam. It must be a slow news day at Fox.
:laugh
0 x
Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Post Reply