Vatican Shakeup

[ohio jones]

The thread title reminds me of the old saying:

When the Pope gives you lemons, make a Vatican Shakeup.

[Josh]

If swearing an oath to uphold Roe v Wade is required to hold public office, than no sincere Christian can hold public office unless they first renounce following Christ.

... which is what Anabaptists have been saying since 1525.

[temporal1]

Vatican City explained / 7min

[Outsider]

Jesus did not come to Institute an economic and political system to make everybody as wealthy as possible. Instead, he said the rich will have a very difficult time to enter the kingdom of heaven.

That's very true, but he also did not come to create an economic and political system to make everybody poor, or to make everybody middle-class. It seems to me that the Pope is teaching "giving till you grieve yourself", and it seems to me that there has been a cult of causing oneself grief in the Chruch. Flagellants have always been a part of that cult. I believe this is because they conflate being "persecuted for his name's sake" with suffering of any type.

<bunny trail> Like the cults of the Saints. Though I firmly believe that God uses the Saints to intercede with us, it's less than reasonable to believe you need them to reach Christ who lives inside you and knows what you are going to ask beforehand... but that's something else. (Robert should give us a rabbit emoji for this) </bunny trail>

2 Corinthians 9:7
each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love,

Abraham was a rich man. And he gave out of his abundance. Christ is all the riches in this world and the next- and he shares with us abundantly as we will share with others in our abundance.

People can be many things in this world. Individuality is both the blessing and curse of human existence. The reason for our being (or so I believe) and the reason for our fall. That "free will" thing.

[RZehr]

Jesus did not come to Institute an economic and political system to make everybody as wealthy as possible. Instead, he said the rich will have a very difficult time to enter the kingdom of heaven.

That's very true, but he also did not come to create an economic and political system to make everybody poor, or to make everybody middle-class. It seems to me that the Pope is teaching "giving till you grieve yourself", and it seems to me that there has been a cult of causing oneself grief in the Chruch. Flagellants have always been a part of that cult. I believe this is because they conflate being "persecuted for his name's sake" with suffering of any type.

<bunny trail> Like the cults of the Saints. Though I firmly believe that God uses the Saints to intercede with us, it's less than reasonable to believe you need them to reach Christ who lives inside you and knows what you are going to ask beforehand... but that's something else. (Robert should give us a rabbit emoji for this) </bunny trail>

2 Corinthians 9:7
each one, according as he doth purpose in heart, not out of sorrow or out of necessity, for a cheerful giver doth God love,

Abraham was a rich man. And he gave out of his abundance. Christ is all the riches in this world and the next- and he shares with us abundantly as we will share with others in our abundance.

People can be many things in this world. Individuality is both the blessing and curse of human existence. The reason for our being (or so I believe) and the reason for our fall. That "free will" thing.

Well and good. I agree with you on the lack of Jesus teaching on governmental social economics.

We also have the teachings about giving all vs giving of abundance. I’m pretty uncomfortable with the ‘health and wealth’ idea, which seems to be popular in some circles. But I try to keep both the voluntary poverty/limitation and enjoying Gods blessings and abundance in mind.

[Outsider]

We also have the teachings about giving all vs giving of abundance. I’m pretty uncomfortable with the ‘health and wealth’ idea, which seems to be popular in some circles. But I try to keep both the voluntary poverty/limitation and enjoying Gods blessings and abundance in mind.

If you can cheerfully give everything you have, your faith is great, and you are certainly greater than the one who gives out of abundance. But most of us, while happy to share, don't have the faith to let the pot of flour refill itself during the famine.

If you grieve yourself, or give because you think you "have to" (think Ananias and his wife), you stoke resentment in your heart. Better to be the servant who only doubled his master's money, than the servant who gained nothing. Give cheerfully. And don't mind how men think of you.

I don't think Jesus was implying that having money in and of itself was bad or something to be ashamed of. His point when he gave us the "eye of a needle" quote was the temptations wealth makes available. All the sin in this world can be bought. Those temptations can be overcome by living in the Spirit, hence "all things are possible with God".



15 `Ye do not do perversity in judgment; thou dost not lift up the face of the poor, nor honour the face of the great; in righteousness thou dost judge thy fellow.

[Josh]

I don't think Jesus was implying that having money in and of itself was bad or something to be ashamed of. His point when he gave us the "eye of a needle" quote was the temptations wealth makes available. All the sin in this world can be bought. Those temptations can be overcome by living in the Spirit, hence "all things are possible with God".

It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. The point is that it is impossible for a "rich man" to enter the kingdom of heaven, either. When a rich man accepts salvation, he has to become something else other than a rich man.

[Outsider]

It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. The point is that it is impossible for a "rich man" to enter the kingdom of heaven, either. When a rich man accepts salvation, he has to become something else other than a rich man.

23 and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens;

24 and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'

26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

[Josh]

It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. The point is that it is impossible for a "rich man" to enter the kingdom of heaven, either. When a rich man accepts salvation, he has to become something else other than a rich man.

23 and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens;

24 and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'

26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

If we believe Jesus at his words, he said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (which is impossible).

With God, it is possible that the rich man will lay down his wealth. With men, such a thing is unthinkable and seems impossible.

[Outsider]

It is impossible for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. The point is that it is impossible for a "rich man" to enter the kingdom of heaven, either. When a rich man accepts salvation, he has to become something else other than a rich man.

23 and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens;

24 and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'

26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

If we believe Jesus at his words, he said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (which is impossible).

With God, it is possible that the rich man will lay down his wealth. With men, such a thing is unthinkable and seems impossible.

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.