Vatican Shakeup

[RZehr]

23 and Jesus said to his disciples, `Verily I say to you, that hardly shall a rich man enter into the reign of the heavens;

24 and again I say to you, it is easier for a camel through the eye of a needle to go, than for a rich man to enter into the reign of God.'

25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'

26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.'

If we believe Jesus at his words, he said it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle (which is impossible).

With God, it is possible that the rich man will lay down his wealth. With men, such a thing is unthinkable and seems impossible.

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

How is this relevant to what Josh said? What are you saying?

[Outsider]

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

How is this relevant to what Josh said? What are you saying?

That rich people can be part of the Kingdom of God. How much money you have is irrelevant.

I've known quite a few people who knew Truitt Kathy, the Chick Fil A guy, personally. He was open-handed and generous to all the people he was in contact with.

Who do you think he should have given his money to? Who would have spent it better than he? You?

Full disclosure: I'm not rich.

[Ken]

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

How is this relevant to what Josh said? What are you saying?

That rich people can be part of the Kingdom of God. How much money you have is irrelevant.

I've known quite a few people who knew Truitt Kathy, the Chick Fil A guy, personally. He was open-handed and generous to all the people he was in contact with.

Who do you think he should have given his money to? Who would have spent it better than he? You?

Full disclosure: I'm not rich.

He didn't give it all away. In 2007, Forbes magazine ranked Cathy as the 380th richest man in America and the 799th richest man in the world, with an estimated net worth of $1.2 billion which had risen to $1.8 billion by the time of his death in 2014.

And he didn't give it all away when he died either. the Cathy family heirs are now worth over $14 BILLION which makes them the 21st richest family in America: https://www.businessinsider.com/cathy-f ... tos-2019-3

If how rich you are is irrelevant to the Kingdom of God then what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 19:24 when he said:

• And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

[Josh]

With apologies to joey_the_ox, I tend to interpret things like this in the light of tradition and the teachings of early church fathers. There was near universal agreement that Christians could not be wealthy.

[RZehr]

9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.

How is this relevant to what Josh said? What are you saying?

That rich people can be part of the Kingdom of God. How much money you have is irrelevant.

I've known quite a few people who knew Truitt Kathy, the Chick Fil A guy, personally. He was open-handed and generous to all the people he was in contact with.

Who do you think he should have given his money to? Who would have spent it better than he? You?

Full disclosure: I'm not rich.

What connection is there between the verses and what you said here?

[Outsider]

How is this relevant to what Josh said? What are you saying?

That rich people can be part of the Kingdom of God. How much money you have is irrelevant.

I've known quite a few people who knew Truitt Kathy, the Chick Fil A guy, personally. He was open-handed and generous to all the people he was in contact with.

Who do you think he should have given his money to? Who would have spent it better than he? You?

Full disclosure: I'm not rich.

He didn't give it all away.

I never meant to imply that he did. And why should he, if he was doing good for those around him. Why should you or I think we could be a better husbandman for the Lord than he was?

If how rich you are is irrelevant to the Kingdom of God then what do you think Jesus meant in Matthew 19:24 when he said:

• And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

If a man starts a buisness- a cabinet shop, a restaurant, a mill, whatever- and it becomes successful enough to make his rich, should he shut it down because he has profited in a worldly way?


10 for a root of all the evils is the love of money, which certain longing for did go astray from the faith, and themselves did pierce through with many sorrows;

You can be successful without engaging in dishonesty, or being miserly.

[Outsider]

With apologies to joey_the_ox, I tend to interpret things like this in the light of tradition and the teachings of early church fathers. There was near universal agreement that Christians could not be wealthy.

Could you expand on that with examples of what you mean?

[Sudsy]

What is wealthy ? If this is true that the world's average salary is just less than $18,000 a year, I would suggest that probably all of us have above average incomes and could be considered wealthy/rich.

I suspect most of us are very rich compared to most in this world so I guess it is going to be hard for any of us to enter the Kingdom in how some believe what being rich is.

For instance -

If you have food in your fridge, clothes on your back, a roof over your head and a place to sleep you are richer than 75% of the world.

If you have money in the bank, your wallet, and some spare change you are among the top 8% of the world’s wealthy.

Etc, etc.

[Ken]

If a man starts a buisness- a cabinet shop, a restaurant, a mill, whatever- and it becomes successful enough to make his rich, should he shut it down because he has profited in a worldly way?

You can be successful without engaging in dishonesty, or being miserly.

We all make choices with what we do with our lives and the career we follow is one of the biggest choices of all as most of us devote more of our waking hours to work than anything else.

Truett Cathy was clearly an immensely talented leader to have built such an empire. But what did he actually build? There is a Chick-fil-A near by house and it is decent enough as far as fast good goes. Better than some and not as good as others. But it is still basically fried fast food and calorie-laden sodas that is contributing to the obesity epidemic in this country. And the industrial sourcing of chicken breasts by companies like Chick-fil-A has had negative impacts on both farmers in the US and farmers overseas. Was building a multi-Billion dollar fast food empire the highest and most Godly-use of his talents? Is another fast food chain in this country a net positive or net negative for our society? I have no idea and am not one to judge.

I personally don't think Jesus was talking about wealth per se in Matthew 19. Or at least not simply wealth. I think he was speaking more broadly about the life choice we make. And whether we devote ourselves to the pursuit of wealth or to lives devoted more to service. We only have so many hours in a day and so many days in our lives so in many ways it is a zero-sum game.

[Ken]

What is wealthy ? If this is true that the world's average salary is just less than $18,000 a year, I would suggest that probably all of us have above average incomes and could be considered wealthy/rich.

I suspect most of us are very rich compared to most in this world so I guess it is going to be hard for any of us to enter the Kingdom in how some believe what being rich is.

For instance -

If you have food in your fridge, clothes on your back, a roof over your head and a place to sleep you are richer than 75% of the world.

If you have money in the bank, your wallet, and some spare change you are among the top 8% of the world’s wealthy.

Etc, etc.

Like I said upstream. I don't think Jesus was speaking so much about quantitative measures of wealth. But more about the choices we make in our lives. Do we devote ourselves to the pursuit of wealth or lives of service? Or put another way, do we center our lives on greed and envy, or generosity, charity, and sacrifice/service for others?

It isn't so much about defining what is rich in our society compared to other societies or time periods. It is more about what it actually takes to BECOME rich in this society by our standards of rich (say the top 5% or top 1%). And the compromises and choices you have to make to get there.