Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

[MaxPC]

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a published book that is available to all Catholics. There are no secret Vatican footnotes. But then you knew that didn't you?

I pointed to the version published by the US Council of Bishops because it is a better and more readable English version than that found on the actual Vatican web site. The Vatican web site actually looks like something published on GeoCities ca. 1998. And is the same thing, just less readable. But knock yourself out, here it is: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I sense you are hostile in this discussion. Nevertheless, the CCC is available in different formats including condensed versions that do not include some of the footnotes at the Vatican website. As noted, the USCCB is easier on the eyes but it does not possess the links to the biblio footnotes that are present at the Vatican website. Scholars prefer those links to see the background of the thesis.

The Catholic Church does not rely on uneducated fly-by-night self-appointed Evangelical preachers to do its teachings and baptisms in Brazil or anywhere else. That is simply a fact. Which the story that started this thread actually makes quite clear by quoting from actual Catholic authorities.

If you will take the time to carefully reread my responses, you will see that this assumption about them is incorrect and is one that I never claimed as occurring. I repeat: Socialisation and fellowship by local Catholics in nonCatholic settings on a weekly basis is what occurs. Not the teaching of Catholic doctrine.

[Soloist]

Again Max, no sourcing. Ken is more reliable even if he is wrong simply because you refuse to back up anything you claim.

[Soloist]

Reposting the same thing doesn’t change facts. You make claims, Ken makes claims. Only one of you actually supports said claims.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a published book that is available to all Catholics. There are no secret Vatican footnotes. But then you knew that didn't you?

I pointed to the version published by the US Council of Bishops because it is a better and more readable English version than that found on the actual Vatican web site. The Vatican web site actually looks like something published on GeoCities ca. 1998. And is the same thing, just less readable. But knock yourself out, here it is: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I sense you are hostile in this discussion. Nevertheless, the CCC is available in different formats including condensed versions that do not include some of the footnotes at the Vatican website. As noted, the USCCB is easier on the eyes but it does not possess the links to the biblio footnotes that are present at the Vatican website. Scholars prefer those links to see the background of the thesis.

The Catholic Church does not rely on uneducated fly-by-night self-appointed Evangelical preachers to do its teachings and baptisms in Brazil or anywhere else. That is simply a fact. Which the story that started this thread actually makes quite clear by quoting from actual Catholic authorities.

If you will take the time to carefully reread my responses, you will see that this assumption about them is incorrect and is one that I never claimed as occurring. I repeat: Socialisation and fellowship by local Catholics in nonCatholic settings on a weekly basis is what occurs. Not the teaching of Catholic doctrine.

Once again, you do not have the necessary authority to assert that anything you say is an authoritative understanding of Catholic doctrine. Unlike us, there is a process in place. Are you or are you not authorized by your diocese ordinary to teach on behalf of the Church ? If not, your opinions are just that, and carry no more weight than Ken’s. The USCCB does have the authority to interpret doctrine for those under their jurisdiction. You do not.

If I understand the last sentence correctly I am indeed correct, your goal is to win a hearing. Step one in evangelization.

[Josh]

Ken posted official Vatican links. Is there something wrong with the link? MaxPC, what is a better source of official Catholic doctrine?

I have visited with a Catholic priest and he definitely told me that belief in baptism conferring salvation, including to an infant, is an important part of Catholic doctrine. He and I actually agreed this is an area where Anabaptists like myself have fundamentally different doctrine. It was also an amicable discussion.

However, the idea that Catholic doctrine doesn’t mean believing baptising an infant confers salvific grace is an idea I can’t find any support of anywhere.

If we can’t believe the U.S. C. of Catholic Bishops, the Vatican website, or a priest I’ve talked to face to face… then where should we go to find out official Catholic doctrine?

[Ken]

Look. Anyone who has worked overseas knows that different mission groups cooperate on a lot of levels, especially on development projects. When my parents worked in Brazil with MCC a couple decades ago they worked directly with a couple of nuns who had started a rural health clinic. Different groups often collaborate on these sorts of things. Some more so than others. People who are working in rural development tend to collaborate. It only makes sense.

But what they do not collaborate on is theology. The Catholic church does not rely on evangelical Pentecostal preachers to conduct its religious teachings, perform its baptisms, and vice versa. Such a thing would be directly contrary to Catholic teaching. In the very limited circumstances when the Catholic church relies on lay people to perform rites like baptism they do so under the auspices of the Catholic church. In other words, it is trained Catholic lay ministers who are teaching Catholic doctrine and performing rites according to Catholic standards. The Catholic church doesn't outsource its ministry to anyone.

Also I suspect people who haven't lived in Latin America (especially rural Latin America) don't understand how raw the conflict is between evangelicals and Catholics. Years ago when I was in Guatemala I would see evangelical ministers set up shop on the very steps of the Catholic church and preach with loudspeakers all day long during Wednesday market days. And sometimes also on religious holidays. It wasn't random sermons. It was often anti-Catholic diatribes. They weren't trying to "save souls". They were overtly trying to convert Catholics. And that conflict has only grown over time.

And this isn't North American missionaries doing this sort of thing. It's all local evangelical/Pentecostal preachers doing it on their own initiative. These places are their own cultures and less under the sway of various North American mission groups than some might think.

I'm no particular fan of the Catholic church. They have made a mess of things around the world and I don't think it is a coincidence that Catholic societies tend to be less prosperous and free compared to Protestant societies. But this sort of thing is also driving an enormous wedge through Latin American society and splitting families, communities, and society right down the middle. Sort of like how social media driven politics is fracturing the US down the middle too. And I don't necessarily think that is a good thing either.

[Judas Maccabeus]

I noticed that you did not access the CCC at the Vatican website. They have important footnotes and biblios there to provide more background. The USCCB link is serviceable for search purposes but the Vatican website provides more background cross links. It is important to read the entire section of any given part of the CCC and not just make a personal opinion based from one or two paragraphs. The CCC is a monumental work to be sure, referenced and cross referenced with the Bible, the writings of the Church Fathers, and the various writings of saints through the centuries. I highly recommend reading the whole work. While it may not be a ripping read like a spy novel, it is considered the finest written work of our faith next in line to the Bible. Cardinal Ratzinger (later Pope Benedict XVI) was a thorough scholar who coordinated its writing.

In the Deposit of Faith, belief in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation; membership in the Catholic Church is considered an outward expression of that via the Rite of Christian Initiation. Note that our Rite of Christian Initiation is tripartite: Baptism, First Holy Communion, and Confirmation. Membership is a process of rites not a single Sacrament.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is a published book that is available to all Catholics. There are no secret Vatican footnotes. But then you knew that didn't you?

I pointed to the version published by the US Council of Bishops because it is a better and more readable English version than that found on the actual Vatican web site. The Vatican web site actually looks like something published on GeoCities ca. 1998. And is the same thing, just less readable. But knock yourself out, here it is: https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM

I sense you are hostile in this discussion. Nevertheless, the CCC is available in different formats including condensed versions that do not include some of the footnotes at the Vatican website. As noted, the USCCB is easier on the eyes but it does not possess the links to the biblio footnotes that are present at the Vatican website. Scholars prefer those links to see the background of the thesis.

The Catholic Church does not rely on uneducated fly-by-night self-appointed Evangelical preachers to do its teachings and baptisms in Brazil or anywhere else. That is simply a fact. Which the story that started this thread actually makes quite clear by quoting from actual Catholic authorities.

If you will take the time to carefully reread my responses, you will see that this assumption about them is incorrect and is one that I never claimed as occurring. I repeat: Socialisation and fellowship by local Catholics in nonCatholic settings on a weekly basis is what occurs. Not the teaching of Catholic doctrine.

You suggest we should take your version, rather than the USCCB's? The USCCB has teaching authority for all that are under its jurisdiction. Do you have teaching authority, conferred by your ordinary? If not, you have no authority that is different than Ken's, and no authority to suggest that your teaching is, in fact, more authoritative than his.

And the "biblo references" in the footnote are not part of the actual document. You, actually are quite hostile to anyone who challenges your unsupported claim to authority.

[RZehr]

What is a ordinary?

[Josh]

What is a ordinary?

A bishop with authority over his diocese or eparchy, etc

[Ken]

What is a ordinary?

A bishop with authority over his diocese or eparchy, etc

Yes. Some priests and bishops have other roles such as maybe running a school or hospital or merely have administrative duties that doesn't put them in the chain of command within a diocese.