Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

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Ken
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Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Ken »

Absolutely fascinating article in the Washington Post today about the battle between the Catholic Church and Evangelicals in the Brazilian Amazon. This is a gift-link so should bypass the paywall: https://wapo.st/3UIhrYO

Here is the regular link: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/in ... rotestant/

Take-home message for me? The Catholic Church is absolutely handicapping itself by its current structure of church leadership by outside priests. In this particular case the story is about a remote village that the regional priest can only visit once a year for one annual mass. What kind of Christianity is that? Ridiculous to think that is an actual functioning church when they only meet once a year. Unless Catholicism can actually figure out how to be present in such communities, this story will continue across the world. And probably the only way they can do that is through married priests recruited locally.

Of course Evangelicals who actually live in the community are going to beat them out when the Catholic Church doesn't even show up for 364 days out of 365.
When the rains finally receded, Father Moisés Oliveira pulled his motorboat out into the swollen Purus River and pointed it downstream. Chugging down muddy waters toward the next community on his schedule, the Catholic priest felt uncertain. He’d heard all about the problems in São Miguel.

Like so many other isolated settlements scattered throughout the Amazon rainforest, São Miguel was historically Catholic. Not that long ago, when Father Moisés would make his annual journey there, his presence was a community event — the only time when the people of São Miguel could attend Mass, have their babies baptized and make confession. The squat church could never fit all the faithful.

But that was before the arrival of an evangelical Protestant pastor in early 2020, before the opening of the community’s first evangelical church, before a fever of conversions split the community and turned it against itself. Longtime friends stopped talking. Families fractured. Suspicion and rumor spread about the Devil and death. When a 12-year-old girl was found dead in 2020, hanging from her porch rafters, Catholics saw a terrible accident. But evangelicals whispered of suicide and a demon that the pastor said was stalking the community.

The priest looked across the waters and saw São Miguel up ahead, a line of shacks rising upon an escarpment. At the far end, where forest nipped at the village, was one of its newest buildings. Painted white and blue, the pastor’s evangelical church gleamed like a beacon in the day’s falling light.

Father Moisés hadn’t met the pastor, nor heard him preach, but his charisma was no secret. Evangelicals said they’d never heard anyone speak of God as he did. Thin and tanned, hands calloused from years of wielding a chain saw, the pastor looked no different from thousands of others struggling to survive along the Purus. But followers said he’d been touched by divine providence. He was rumored to have banished malevolent spirits and cured illnesses. He claimed to be illiterate but somehow read the Bible with fluency. Wherever he went, Catholics renounced their church and followed him.

The next day, Father Moisés would step up to the altar of the Catholic church and be forced to reckon with the pastor’s impact. He didn’t know how many faithful he’d find in the pews at the annual Mass or whether the community could still even be considered Catholic. He could only be sure that whatever was happening in São Miguel was not unique to it.

In his 36 years, Father Moisés had witnessed a marked retreat of Catholicism across Latin America, where evangelical Protestants were increasingly challenging its historic dominance. The collapse had been particularly swift in the priest’s own Brazil — the church’s strongest redoubt by measure of Catholic adherents. His vast, deeply Christian country, whose Catholic roots reached back to Portuguese colonization, was now being reborn evangelical.

In the roughly two decades since he entered seminary, the number of evangelical churches had tripled, according to the Institute of Applied Economic Research, and now accounted for 7 out of 10 religious establishments. Nearly 180 million of his fellow Brazilians — 84 percent of the population — were baptized Catholic, Vatican statistics show. But so many had turned away from his church that soon, demographers say, if not already, Brazil would for the first time no longer be majority-Catholic.

. . .
read the whole thing.
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Josh
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Josh »

In Guatemala the Eastern Orthodox figured out this same formula and report "mass conversions" from Catholicism to Eastern Orthodoxy.

Ultimately this is rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic.
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MaxPC
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

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read the whole thing.
It is a repeat of numerous stories in Catholic journals since the 1960s. The shortage of priests is the main cause as people of faith seek to meet regularly. When the priest is itinerant and can only visit once a month, then the desire to meet regularly is thwarted.

There are places in South America in which the faithful remain Catholic and attend the infrequent Masses as they are available. When the priest is not available they will go to the local non-Catholic group for fellowship and socialising.

Neither I nor many of the Catholic hierarchy see this as a competition with other denominations. As far as I am concerned, I am glad to see any population hunger for Christ and the Bible.

I see this as individuals seeking to meet their needs for faith-based gatherings when priests are not available. Indeed some of the local priests form associations with non-Catholic ministers to provide social services and ecumenical prayer meetings.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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Ken
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Ken »

MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:34 am
read the whole thing.
It is a repeat of numerous stories in Catholic journals since the 1960s. The shortage of priests is the main cause as people of faith seek to meet regularly. When the priest is itinerant and can only visit once a month, then the desire to meet regularly is thwarted.

There are places in South America in which the faithful remain Catholic and attend the infrequent Masses as they are available. When the priest is not available they will go to the local non-Catholic group for fellowship and socialising.

Neither I nor many of the Catholic hierarchy see this as a competition with other denominations. As far as I am concerned, I am glad to see any population hunger for Christ and the Bible.

I see this as individuals seeking to meet their needs for faith-based gatherings when priests are not available. Indeed some of the local priests form associations with non-Catholic ministers to provide social services and ecumenical prayer meetings.
How very un-Catholic of you.
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by MaxPC »

Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:18 pm
MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:34 am
read the whole thing.
It is a repeat of numerous stories in Catholic journals since the 1960s. The shortage of priests is the main cause as people of faith seek to meet regularly. When the priest is itinerant and can only visit once a month, then the desire to meet regularly is thwarted.

There are places in South America in which the faithful remain Catholic and attend the infrequent Masses as they are available. When the priest is not available they will go to the local non-Catholic group for fellowship and socialising.

Neither I nor many of the Catholic hierarchy see this as a competition with other denominations. As far as I am concerned, I am glad to see any population hunger for Christ and the Bible.

I see this as individuals seeking to meet their needs for faith-based gatherings when priests are not available. Indeed some of the local priests form associations with non-Catholic ministers to provide social services and ecumenical prayer meetings.
How very un-Catholic of you.
Propaganda, fables and myths notwithstanding, cooperative ecumenical efforts initiated by the Catholic Church have been ongoing for at least a century. It is a very Catholic characteristic. Competition between denominations regarding sheep stealing is non-productive and that has been the perspective of the RCC in those areas that need help.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
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1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Ken
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Ken »

MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:27 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:18 pm
MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 10:34 am

It is a repeat of numerous stories in Catholic journals since the 1960s. The shortage of priests is the main cause as people of faith seek to meet regularly. When the priest is itinerant and can only visit once a month, then the desire to meet regularly is thwarted.

There are places in South America in which the faithful remain Catholic and attend the infrequent Masses as they are available. When the priest is not available they will go to the local non-Catholic group for fellowship and socialising.

Neither I nor many of the Catholic hierarchy see this as a competition with other denominations. As far as I am concerned, I am glad to see any population hunger for Christ and the Bible.

I see this as individuals seeking to meet their needs for faith-based gatherings when priests are not available. Indeed some of the local priests form associations with non-Catholic ministers to provide social services and ecumenical prayer meetings.
How very un-Catholic of you.
Propaganda, fables and myths notwithstanding, cooperative ecumenical efforts initiated by the Catholic Church have been ongoing for at least a century. It is a very Catholic characteristic. Competition between denominations regarding sheep stealing is non-productive and that has been the perspective of the RCC in those areas that need help.
Since the Council of Trent formally condemned Protestants and Protestant doctrine as heretical in 1563, the Catholic church has officially deemed Protestants as "material or formal" heretics. The actual Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the Church there is no salvation). And someone not properly baptized by a priest within the church is not considered saved. To this day, and despite Vatican 2, they haven't changed any of that official church doctrine.

Like it or not, that is the actual doctrine of the church that you say that you are a member of.
Last edited by Ken on Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MaxPC
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by MaxPC »

Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:44 pm
MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:27 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 12:18 pm

How very un-Catholic of you.
Propaganda, fables and myths notwithstanding, cooperative ecumenical efforts initiated by the Catholic Church have been ongoing for at least a century. It is a very Catholic characteristic. Competition between denominations regarding sheep stealing is non-productive and that has been the perspective of the RCC in those areas that need help.
Since the Council of Trent formally condemned Protestants and Protestant doctrine as heretical in 1563, the Catholic church has officially deemed Protestants as "material or formal" heretics. And Catholicism has always taught that outside the Catholic church there is no salvation. After Vatican 2 they toned down some of the language. But to this day haven't changed any of the official church doctrine. And to this day the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the Church there is no salvation).

Like it or not, that is the actual doctrine of the church that you say you are a member of.
The Council of Trent is no longer accepted liturgically. Can you provide a link to the actual current CCC references at the Vatican website that support what you claim? Be sure to also include those sections of the current CCC that reference ecumenicism and joint ecumenical efforts.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
Ken
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Ken »

MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:49 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:44 pm
MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:27 pm

Propaganda, fables and myths notwithstanding, cooperative ecumenical efforts initiated by the Catholic Church have been ongoing for at least a century. It is a very Catholic characteristic. Competition between denominations regarding sheep stealing is non-productive and that has been the perspective of the RCC in those areas that need help.
Since the Council of Trent formally condemned Protestants and Protestant doctrine as heretical in 1563, the Catholic church has officially deemed Protestants as "material or formal" heretics. And Catholicism has always taught that outside the Catholic church there is no salvation. After Vatican 2 they toned down some of the language. But to this day haven't changed any of the official church doctrine. And to this day the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the Church there is no salvation).

Like it or not, that is the actual doctrine of the church that you say you are a member of.
The Council of Trent is no longer accepted liturgically. Can you provide a link to the actual current CCC references at the Vatican website that support what you claim? Be sure to also include those sections of the current CCC that reference ecumenicism and joint ecumenical efforts.
I can provide you with a real life example. Recently there was a scandal in Arizona where the Catholic Church determined that thousands of baptisms were invalid because as priest used one wrong word. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... wrong-word. For years, he mistakenly using the phrase ‘we baptize you’ instead of ‘I baptize you’.

So yes, not only does the Catholic church believe that all baptisms conducted OUTSIDE the Catholic church are invalid. They even believe their own baptisms are invalid if not done precisely correctly. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is indeed still the doctrine of the Catholic church..
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MaxPC
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by MaxPC »

Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:55 pm
MaxPC wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:49 pm
Ken wrote: Sun Feb 18, 2024 1:44 pm

Since the Council of Trent formally condemned Protestants and Protestant doctrine as heretical in 1563, the Catholic church has officially deemed Protestants as "material or formal" heretics. And Catholicism has always taught that outside the Catholic church there is no salvation. After Vatican 2 they toned down some of the language. But to this day haven't changed any of the official church doctrine. And to this day the actual Catechism of the Catholic Church states "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (outside the Church there is no salvation).

Like it or not, that is the actual doctrine of the church that you say you are a member of.
The Council of Trent is no longer accepted liturgically. Can you provide a link to the actual current CCC references at the Vatican website that support what you claim? Be sure to also include those sections of the current CCC that reference ecumenicism and joint ecumenical efforts.
I can provide you with a real life example. Recently there was a scandal in Arizona where the Catholic Church determined that thousands of baptisms were invalid because as priest used one wrong word. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... wrong-word. For years, he mistakenly using the phrase ‘we baptize you’ instead of ‘I baptize you’.
Examples from mass media do not qualify as an authoritative source of Catholic teaching. They are merely opinions. I asked for the links from the Vatican website which is authoritative.
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Max (Plain Catholic)
Mt 24:35
Proverbs 18:2 A fool does not delight in understanding but only in revealing his own mind.
1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God
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Re: Catholicism vs. Evangelicalism in Brazil

Post by Soloist »

Max, you are the one who spoke authoritative of Catholic doctrine… since you know it, you should have something authoritative to support or otherwise…
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