Can Anabaptism be Catholic and vice versa?

[Soloist]

One can have a firm belief as I do, without the desire to bash others over the head with it. As Jesus said, present the faith and if met with stubborn violence walk away shaking the dust from one’s feet.

I am not the one presenting fringe views. He attacks our church, our history and our views on baptism. Remember, that this is a MENNONITE discussion forum.

This I will defend.

Are you trying to take this space over? Sure looks like it.

No. Are you deliberately trying to drive a wedge and destroy Anabaptist and Catholic friendships? If so, your anger is having the opposite effect.

So his anger is improving relationships?

Also, if you have anyone to point fingers at, perhaps point at the Catholic name calling as well otherwise your bias is obvious.

[Judas Maccabeus]

One can have a firm belief as I do, without the desire to bash others over the head with it. As Jesus said, present the faith and if met with stubborn violence walk away shaking the dust from one’s feet.

I am not the one presenting fringe views. He attacks our church, our history and our views on baptism. Remember, that this is a MENNONITE discussion forum.

This I will defend.

Are you trying to take this space over? Sure looks like it.

No. Are you deliberately trying to drive a wedge and destroy Anabaptist and Catholic friendships? If so, your anger is having the opposite effect.

You do realize that, theologically Anabaptism and Roman Catholicism are fundamentally incompatible, and any bridges will need be informal, and not in conjunction with our church life and structure. This is fundamental truth. One does not have to drive a wedge, it is already there. On a personal level, I do in fact have more catholic friends than I can easily count. They appreciate my church and what it does, but will never attend. Two, in particular, appreciate my skills with wood. Just don't challenge my faith, or you will get an answer.

Your friend seems to challenge out theology, piece by piece, baptism, the lords supper etc. When he realized he could make no headway there, we had answers for each of his points, he turned to trying to say our history is non-historical, tried to say we are descended from a 15th century monk (In spite of no proof), called a hero in our early movement (Michael Sattler) a warmonger because he would not submit to authority and recant his beliefs (in spite of the fact that it was a show trial) and is trying to get us to swallow a connection between a 20th century political philosopher and Anabaptism as a proof that we are descended from catholic monasticism. Can't find any reference to this monk in our early writings, I even told him how to access our early writings. Just yells louder. I have difficulty comprehending this philosopher. as that is out of my wheelhouse. Suffice to say, this is revisionist history, our history is well documented.

If anything, this is someone driving a wedge. Denigrating our hero's, and seeking to say our history is illegitimate are pounding a wedge in with a sledgehammer.

Now about what seems to be going on here.

1.You are here to "make friends" and present a kinder gentler version of Catholicism. Leadership has permitted you to do so, it is not my call.

2. He is challenging our historical narrative , trying to convince us that our history is unhistorical. This is to sow doubt.

This is the same playbook we use to evangelize Muslims.

1. Make friends, present Christianity as compatible with Islam, and not all that different.

2. Challenge what is now known as the "Standard Islamic Narrative". that the four "rightly guided" calaphs did not in fact exist, Mecca was uninhabited until the 11th century, Mohammed may or may not have existed.

So, if you wonder why I am suspicious, this is why. You seem to be playing by a missionary's playbook. Are you sure you are not the same people?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Anyone ever hear of Professor Mike Driedger in Ontario?.? He seems to want to Munsterfy all of anabaptism.

He seems to present Munster as the norm, and everything else as an outlier.

[ken_sylvania]

Anyone ever hear of Professor Mike Driedger in Ontario?.? He seems to want to Munsterfy all of anabaptism.

He seems to present Munster as the norm, and everything else as an outlier.

He sounds like a 16th century Protestant.

[MaxPC]

I am not the one presenting fringe views. He attacks our church, our history and our views on baptism. Remember, that this is a MENNONITE discussion forum.

This I will defend.

Are you trying to take this space over? Sure looks like it.

No. Are you deliberately trying to drive a wedge and destroy Anabaptist and Catholic friendships? If so, your anger is having the opposite effect.

You do realize that, theologically Anabaptism and Roman Catholicism are fundamentally incompatible, and any bridges will need be informal, and not in conjunction with our church life and structure. This is fundamental truth. One does not have to drive a wedge, it is already there. On a personal level, I do in fact have more catholic friends than I can easily count. They appreciate my church and what it does, but will never attend. Two, in particular, appreciate my skills with wood. Just don't challenge my faith, or you will get an answer.

Your friend seems to challenge out theology, piece by piece, baptism, the lords supper etc. When he realized he could make no headway there, we had answers for each of his points, he turned to trying to say our history is non-historical, tried to say we are descended from a 15th century monk (In spite of no proof), called a hero in our early movement (Michael Sattler) a warmonger because he would not submit to authority and recant his beliefs (in spite of the fact that it was a show trial) and is trying to get us to swallow a connection between a 20th century political philosopher and Anabaptism as a proof that we are descended from catholic monasticism. Can't find any reference to this monk in our early writings, I even told him how to access our early writings. Just yells louder. I have difficulty comprehending this philosopher. as that is out of my wheelhouse. Suffice to say, this is revisionist history, our history is well documented.

If anything, this is someone driving a wedge. Denigrating our hero's, and seeking to say our history is illegitimate are pounding a wedge in with a sledgehammer.

Now about what seems to be going on here.

1.You are here to "make friends" and present a kinder gentler version of Catholicism. Leadership has permitted you to do so, it is not my call.

2. He is challenging our historical narrative , trying to convince us that our history is unhistorical. This is to sow doubt.

This is the same playbook we use to evangelize Muslims.

1. Make friends, present Christianity as compatible with Islam, and not all that different.

2. Challenge what is now known as the "Standard Islamic Narrative". that the four "rightly guided" calaphs did not in fact exist, Mecca was uninhabited until the 11th century, Mohammed may or may not have existed.

So, if you wonder why I am suspicious, this is why. You seem to be playing by a missionary's playbook. Are you sure you are not the same people?

JM, to be clear, your appraisal of me as an individual is incorrect on all counts:
* You conflate your opinion of me with the actions of others. This is wrong, period.
* I am not here by permission of the Catholic Church. In respecting God's will, the Catholic Church does not control the free-will choices of its membership.
* I am not interested in changing your mind about anything; rather I will correct misconceptions. What others do with that information is up to them, not me.
* I am not interested in the slagging of other faiths nor any conspiratorial playbooks as you call them. Period. God judges all and it is His job, not mine, to judge.
* Each individual is answerable to God for his own actions. To blame an entire group of people based on the actions of a few is neither just nor correct as is exemplified Biblically.

I have now spelled out for you my position. If you do not accept it, that is between you and God. It is also between you and God regarding the suspicious accusations you perseverate in repeating. My Anabaptist friends know these accusations are false. I know they are false. Now it is up to you to decide your course in life and how you will treat others hospitably. Your actions and your reactions are your responsibility per the Bible.

[Judas Maccabeus]

No. Are you deliberately trying to drive a wedge and destroy Anabaptist and Catholic friendships? If so, your anger is having the opposite effect.

You do realize that, theologically Anabaptism and Roman Catholicism are fundamentally incompatible, and any bridges will need be informal, and not in conjunction with our church life and structure. This is fundamental truth. One does not have to drive a wedge, it is already there. On a personal level, I do in fact have more catholic friends than I can easily count. They appreciate my church and what it does, but will never attend. Two, in particular, appreciate my skills with wood. Just don't challenge my faith, or you will get an answer.

Your friend seems to challenge out theology, piece by piece, baptism, the lords supper etc. When he realized he could make no headway there, we had answers for each of his points, he turned to trying to say our history is non-historical, tried to say we are descended from a 15th century monk (In spite of no proof), called a hero in our early movement (Michael Sattler) a warmonger because he would not submit to authority and recant his beliefs (in spite of the fact that it was a show trial) and is trying to get us to swallow a connection between a 20th century political philosopher and Anabaptism as a proof that we are descended from catholic monasticism. Can't find any reference to this monk in our early writings, I even told him how to access our early writings. Just yells louder. I have difficulty comprehending this philosopher. as that is out of my wheelhouse. Suffice to say, this is revisionist history, our history is well documented.

If anything, this is someone driving a wedge. Denigrating our hero's, and seeking to say our history is illegitimate are pounding a wedge in with a sledgehammer.

Now about what seems to be going on here.

1.You are here to "make friends" and present a kinder gentler version of Catholicism. Leadership has permitted you to do so, it is not my call.

2. He is challenging our historical narrative , trying to convince us that our history is unhistorical. This is to sow doubt.

This is the same playbook we use to evangelize Muslims.

1. Make friends, present Christianity as compatible with Islam, and not all that different.

2. Challenge what is now known as the "Standard Islamic Narrative". that the four "rightly guided" calaphs did not in fact exist, Mecca was uninhabited until the 11th century, Mohammed may or may not have existed.

So, if you wonder why I am suspicious, this is why. You seem to be playing by a missionary's playbook. Are you sure you are not the same people?

JM, to be clear, your appraisal of me as an individual is incorrect on all counts:
* You conflate your opinion of me with the actions of others. This is wrong, period.
* I am not here by permission of the Catholic Church. In respecting God's will, the Catholic Church does not control the free-will choices of its membership.
* I am not interested in changing your mind about anything; rather I will correct misconceptions. What others do with that information is up to them, not me.
* I am not interested in the slagging of other faiths nor any conspiratorial playbooks as you call them. Period. God judges all and it is His job, not mine, to judge.
* Each individual is answerable to God for his own actions. To blame an entire group of people based on the actions of a few is neither just nor correct as is exemplified Biblically.

I have now spelled out for you my position. If you do not accept it, that is between you and God. It is also between you and God regarding the suspicious accusations you perseverate in repeating. My Anabaptist friends know these accusations are false. I know they are false. Now it is up to you to decide your course in life and how you will treat others hospitably. Your actions and your reactions are your responsibility per the Bible.

Once again it walks like a duck….start listening for the quack.

[MaxPC]

You do realize that, theologically Anabaptism and Roman Catholicism are fundamentally incompatible, and any bridges will need be informal, and not in conjunction with our church life and structure. This is fundamental truth. One does not have to drive a wedge, it is already there. On a personal level, I do in fact have more catholic friends than I can easily count. They appreciate my church and what it does, but will never attend. Two, in particular, appreciate my skills with wood. Just don't challenge my faith, or you will get an answer.

Your friend seems to challenge out theology, piece by piece, baptism, the lords supper etc. When he realized he could make no headway there, we had answers for each of his points, he turned to trying to say our history is non-historical, tried to say we are descended from a 15th century monk (In spite of no proof), called a hero in our early movement (Michael Sattler) a warmonger because he would not submit to authority and recant his beliefs (in spite of the fact that it was a show trial) and is trying to get us to swallow a connection between a 20th century political philosopher and Anabaptism as a proof that we are descended from catholic monasticism. Can't find any reference to this monk in our early writings, I even told him how to access our early writings. Just yells louder. I have difficulty comprehending this philosopher. as that is out of my wheelhouse. Suffice to say, this is revisionist history, our history is well documented.

If anything, this is someone driving a wedge. Denigrating our hero's, and seeking to say our history is illegitimate are pounding a wedge in with a sledgehammer.

Now about what seems to be going on here.

1.You are here to "make friends" and present a kinder gentler version of Catholicism. Leadership has permitted you to do so, it is not my call.

2. He is challenging our historical narrative , trying to convince us that our history is unhistorical. This is to sow doubt.

This is the same playbook we use to evangelize Muslims.

1. Make friends, present Christianity as compatible with Islam, and not all that different.

2. Challenge what is now known as the "Standard Islamic Narrative". that the four "rightly guided" calaphs did not in fact exist, Mecca was uninhabited until the 11th century, Mohammed may or may not have existed.

So, if you wonder why I am suspicious, this is why. You seem to be playing by a missionary's playbook. Are you sure you are not the same people?

JM, to be clear, your appraisal of me as an individual is incorrect on all counts:
* You conflate your opinion of me with the actions of others. This is wrong, period.
* I am not here by permission of the Catholic Church. In respecting God's will, the Catholic Church does not control the free-will choices of its membership.
* I am not interested in changing your mind about anything; rather I will correct misconceptions. What others do with that information is up to them, not me.
* I am not interested in the slagging of other faiths nor any conspiratorial playbooks as you call them. Period. God judges all and it is His job, not mine, to judge.
* Each individual is answerable to God for his own actions. To blame an entire group of people based on the actions of a few is neither just nor correct as is exemplified Biblically.

I have now spelled out for you my position. If you do not accept it, that is between you and God. It is also between you and God regarding the suspicious accusations you perseverate in repeating. My Anabaptist friends know these accusations are false. I know they are false. Now it is up to you to decide your course in life and how you will treat others hospitably. Your actions and your reactions are your responsibility per the Bible.

Once again it walks like a duck….start listening for the quack.

You will answer to God for your own attitudes and actions. For your own sake I will leave you with a reminder from an old proverb: In persecuting others you become what you hate.

[Ken]

Anyone ever hear of Professor Mike Driedger in Ontario?.? He seems to want to Munsterfy all of anabaptism.

He seems to present Munster as the norm, and everything else as an outlier.

How so?

Pretty much every Anabaptist group (at least the larger ones) are very explicit about their articles of faith. There isn't much ambiguity about what most Anabaptists believe and don't believe.

Or is he just writing about the 16th Century and not today?

[Judas Maccabeus]

JM, to be clear, your appraisal of me as an individual is incorrect on all counts:
* You conflate your opinion of me with the actions of others. This is wrong, period.
* I am not here by permission of the Catholic Church. In respecting God's will, the Catholic Church does not control the free-will choices of its membership.
* I am not interested in changing your mind about anything; rather I will correct misconceptions. What others do with that information is up to them, not me.
* I am not interested in the slagging of other faiths nor any conspiratorial playbooks as you call them. Period. God judges all and it is His job, not mine, to judge.
* Each individual is answerable to God for his own actions. To blame an entire group of people based on the actions of a few is neither just nor correct as is exemplified Biblically.

I have now spelled out for you my position. If you do not accept it, that is between you and God. It is also between you and God regarding the suspicious accusations you perseverate in repeating. My Anabaptist friends know these accusations are false. I know they are false. Now it is up to you to decide your course in life and how you will treat others hospitably. Your actions and your reactions are your responsibility per the Bible.

Once again it walks like a duck….start listening for the quack.

You will answer to God for your own attitudes and actions. For your own sake I will leave you with a reminder from an old proverb: In persecuting others you become what you hate.

I think I have hit the nail on the head. What purpose is there besides missionary work for setting up to teach Catholicism to Mennonites?

[Judas Maccabeus]

Anyone ever hear of Professor Mike Driedger in Ontario?.? He seems to want to Munsterfy all of anabaptism.

He seems to present Munster as the norm, and everything else as an outlier.

He sounds like a 16th century Protestant.

He is Canadian, an academic, his opinions sound like Falco. His website is a mess, you have to bypass an expired certificate