Can Anabaptism be Catholic and vice versa?

[Josh]

First of all, definitions. I will use the definition of Anabaptism as exhibited in Harold Bender's "Anabaptist Vision", and more specifically Cory Anderson's definition of "plain Anabaptist". I would like to exclude sects of Anabaptism that are transitioning to mainline Protestantism, evangelicalism, etc. as they are not really relevant to this discussion.

Likewise, by "Catholic", I mean "belonging to the Roman Catholic Church". This specifically excludes Protestantism, Old Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Church of the East, Oriental Orthodox, and so on. "Catholic" as a religion is a very well defined term.

The question keeps coming up if someone can be both Catholic and Anabaptist, or if the two churches and sets of doctrines can somehow be compatible with each other. My argument is that no, they cannot, for several reasons:

- The Roman Catholic Church has practiced infant baptism for a very long time - certainly practiced in the 5th century, and probably practiced going back to the 3rd. This is well-attested. Infant baptism being the norm for Catholic families is taught by the RCC and opposition to infant baptism is taught against by the RCC. The RCC teaches that infant baptism imparts grace to the infant as a sacrament. This doctrine is not controversial and is universally accepted in RCC circles.

- The Anabaptists, on the other hand, have practiced adult (as in capable of making decisions, generally age 11 or older) believers' baptism upon confession of faith since their founding in 1525. They do not believe there is ever a reason to baptise infants. Most Anabaptists don't believe in baptism as a sacrament, although some do, but those who do (perhaps German Baptists believe this) believe it should be practiced by an adult believer after confession of faith.

- The Roman Catholic Church requires one submit to and believe in the pope's ultimate authority over the church. Someone who stops doing this, or a group that stops doing so, is no longer "Catholic". In 1054, a large group decided to reject the pope's authority and are now known as the Eastern Orthodox. Likewise, in the 16th century, Protestants rejected papal authority and became known as Protestants.

- Anabaptists, on the other hand, do not accept the pope's authority at all and never have; their founding confession says this regarding the pope (and infant baptism):

This excludes all infant baptism, the highest and chief abomination of the pope.

Therefore, for this reason, I do not see that Anabaptism and Catholicism can ever be reconciled. One of them would have to vastly change. Anabaptists who accepted infant baptism would no longer be Anabaptists. Catholics who rejected the pope's authority would no longer be Catholic. (They would now be Old Catholic, or Anglican, or maybe Orthodox.)

If the pope decided to institute a doctrine of believers' baptism and then also decided to institute there will no longer be heirarchal papal authority, then perhaps it would be possible for Catholics to become "compatible" with Anabaptism. That is a very big "if".

[Sudsy]

I may have mis-understood but I thought the question that was coming up was not as the title of this thread asks but rather can Catholics be considered 'plain'. To me, Anabaptists are obviously in many beliefs and practises not Catholic and vice versa yet I think both can be 'plain' with their own understandings of what it means to be 'plain'. Yes/No ?

[Soloist]

I may have mis-understood but I thought the question that was coming up was not as the title of this thread asks but rather can Catholics be considered 'plain'. To me, Anabaptists are obviously in many beliefs and practises not Catholic and vice versa yet I think both can be 'plain' with their own understandings of what it means to be 'plain'. Yes/No ?

Sure but I don’t go around saying “I’m a plain Mennonite” or that “I belong to plain Mennonites”. Likewise, a Catholic would say “I’m Catholic and part of the Benedictine order” they wouldn’t say “I’m a plain Catholic” they could say “I chose to dress plainly”

Catholics cannot be Anabaptist unless they reject infant baptism. Anabaptists cannot be Catholic unless they accept infant baptism. There of course are a number of other doctrinal issues we call heresy. They would call several of ours heresy too. There is no unity between two groups that believe the other is in sin.

[MaxPC]

I may have mis-understood but I thought the question that was coming up was not as the title of this thread asks but rather can Catholics be considered 'plain'. To me, Anabaptists are obviously in many beliefs and practises not Catholic and vice versa yet I think both can be 'plain' with their own understandings of what it means to be 'plain'. Yes/No ?

Indeed and agreed. Then too, there are the historical and cultural contexts for the nomenclature. Trying to police the language of others who come from a different background is not a good use of my time as a disciple of Jesus. I believe Jesus taught about this behavior in Matthew 23:23-24

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

[Josh]

I may have mis-understood but I thought the question that was coming up was not as the title of this thread asks but rather can Catholics be considered 'plain'. To me, Anabaptists are obviously in many beliefs and practises not Catholic and vice versa yet I think both can be 'plain' with their own understandings of what it means to be 'plain'. Yes/No ?

This thread has nothing to do with plain anything. If you want to discuss plain stuff and Catholicism, we have quite a few "Plain Catholic" threads for that.

I wanted to bring up the broader question of whether or not Catholicism and Anabaptism are compatible, or not.

[Josh]

Indeed and agreed. Then too, there are the historical and cultural contexts for the nomenclature. Trying to police the language of others who come from a different background is not a good use of my time as a disciple of Jesus. I believe Jesus taught about this behavior in Matthew 23:23-24

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

I don't see anything in the Bible where it says it's wrong to understand if someone says they are Catholic or not. Every Catholic I have known is perfectly fine with having the Catholic label. (They've all been comfortable with me having the Mennonite label.)

One thing we do know, though, is that Catholics and Mennonites simply aren't the same thing and don't share the same set of doctrines and beliefs in a few areas. One may be Catholic, one may be Mennonite/Anabaptist, but one cannot be both.

[RZehr]

They are mutually incompatible, Anabaptist and Catholic.

Or are is it: You can take the Menno Simon out of Catholicism, but can you take the Catholicism out of Mennonite?

[barnhart]

Most Anabaptists groups, with a few notable exceptions, claim to be small "c" catholic, that is members of the universal church. In that sense I am a catholic Mennonite.

[Josh]

Most Anabaptists groups, with a few notable exceptions, claim to be small "c" catholic, that is members of the universal church. In that sense I am a catholic Mennonite.

That's why I was careful to define the term "Catholic" to mean "Roman Catholic Church" in my initial post, since I knew eventually someone would decide to muddy the waters by pointing out that "catholic" has an alternative meaning of "universal". When almost anyone says "Catholic", they are referring to the RCC, not an adjective meaning universal.

[Ken]

I would not say that they are mutually incompatible but they are clearly very different things.

If we were to draw a Venn diagram with Anabaptist on one side and Catholic on the other you would find vastly more similarities in the center than mutually exclusive traits on either side



But there is clearly not a perfect overlap so they are not the same thing and an Anabaptist is not a Catholic or vice versa.